Recover HP/MP while standing still, out of battle, and enmity zeroed

[Raikki]

Did you notice in your playing that of the 4-5 mages in a group most were healing.. 1 person? To solve the problem of DPS not getting invited, they could have not raised MP costs. The result of that would have been 1 or 2 healers instead of 4 to 5.

I've not run Darkhold with more than 3 healers, and the third is only for speed. I can hardly fathom needing a 4th (let alone 5th??) mage to tank heal. It is clear that whatever is going on these groups are doing something seriously, seriously wrong, and should not be succeeding at all. That's why this is an encounter design issue. You should not be able to do everything wrong and still win; that's poor design. The solution is to prevent people from winning this way by removing the "stack a ton of healing" loophole in the encounter design. You suggest doing exactly the opposite by making it vastly more convenient for them to win this way, while at the same time trivializing this and future content for everyone else.

[Neptune]

I've not run Darkhold with more than 3 healers, and the third is only for speed. I can hardly fathom needing a 4th (let alone 5th??) mage to tank heal. It is clear that whatever is going on these groups are doing something seriously, seriously wrong, and should not be succeeding at all. That's why this is an encounter design issue. You should not be able to do everything wrong and still win; that's poor design. The solution is to prevent people from winning this way by removing the "stack a ton of healing" loophole in the encounter design. You suggest doing exactly the opposite by making it vastly more convenient for them to win this way, while at the same time trivializing this and future content for everyone else.

Well, before we go there, allow me to suggest.. the quality of your tank had something to do with your healer group size? Your character is fairly well maxed. If you or a character comparable to you were tanking you would have more abilities at your disposal than say someone with only Gladiator ranked. That has a lot to do with how many healers you need.

I'm all for super difficult gameplay. But I don't want it to seem like it's some kind of thing where people weren't paying attention that caused the influx of healers - it was due to how much MP it cost to cast Cure. They tripled to quadrupled the MP cost.. and parties tripled to quadrupled the amount of healers. It's really just as simple as that. Doesn't matter how legit it was.. it was caused by the game design.

You could argue that the community should dig in its heels and tighten up its game and respond to quadruple MP costs by REDUCING the amount of healers it first wants to take.. but what is the point of doing so? Unless you can counsel each and every party leader the second a new patch goes up.. why not leave it to the dev team to set the conditions that determine predictable community responses?

[Viridiana]

Well, before we go there, allow me to suggest.. the quality of your tank had something to do with your healer group size? Your character is fairly well maxed. If you or a character comparable to you were tanking you would have more abilities at your disposal than say someone with only Gladiator ranked. That has a lot to do with how many healers you need.

I'm sorry, I stopped reading right there. I don't think there's a set of healers out there willing to pull a tank that's only leveled GLA.

[Neptune]

I'm sorry, I stopped reading right there. I don't think there's a set of healers out there willing to pull a tank that's only leveled GLA.

Who are you kidding? This game is not comprised totally of elitists. Many healers have no clue what I even said about the difference between a Gladiator who has many classes leveled and otherwise. Do you think only elitists have a right to HAVE A SLOT in a raid party?

[Viridiana]

No, I don't know the difference. Can you explain it to me?

Did you read my explanation of how complicated it is to assume what's going on behind the scenes in the game if incurrED is to be liberally read into? I think that's beyond the scope of the patch notes. Has it occurred to you that if the enmity system was that complicated they might have explained it in detail?

Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again. Note that at this point you have cast (past tense), but are no longer casting (progressive tense).

To apply this to the patch notes, the notes say that you may regenerate MP while standing still, but may not regenerate while incurring enmity. Note that those are both progressive tenses. Meaning that once you've stopped (for however much time) regeneration will begin. If the amount of enmity you have is not changing, then you are not incurring enmity, you merely have incurred it.

Who are you kidding? This game is not comprised totally of elitists. Many healers have no clue what I even said about the difference between a Gladiator who has many classes leveled and otherwise. Do you think only elitists have a right to HAVE A SLOT in a raid party?

Has nothing to do with elitism, but that's a nice red herring. If a tank doesn't have Warmonger, Disorient, Taunt, Accomplice, Prime Conditioning, etc., I very seriously doubt he'd ever be able to tank effectively, no matter how many mages you throw at him.

[Neptune]

Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again. Note that at this point you have cast (past tense), but are no longer casting (progressive tense).

To apply this to the patch notes, the notes say that you may regenerate MP while standing still, but may not regenerate while incurring enmity. Note that those are both progressive tenses. Meaning that once you've stopped (for however much time) regeneration will begin. If the amount of enmity you have is not changing, then you are not incurring enmity, you merely have incurred it.



Has nothing to do with elitism, but that's a nice red herring. If a tank doesn't have Warmonger, Disorient, Taunt, Accomplice, Prime Conditioning, etc., I very seriously doubt he'd ever be able to tank effectively, no matter how many mages you throw at him.

I was being sarcastic but I'm glad you posted that. Actually in WoW there is now "in-combat" regen, which is something like 1/3 of your other mana regen rate. You can adjust it with equipment and talents.

I'm guessing you didn't notice my response to NoctisUmbra. You're proposing that there is programming in the new patch to determine when you have been idle in incurring enmity. This is quite a leap. What we know of the enmity system is that it is accumulative, meaning values don't drop off and continue to accumulate for the duration of the fight. When you incur a high level of enmity the only way for it to go "down" is for someone else to go higher than you. So if you understand what I am saying there you will understand why I don't think there is a basis for thinking the game "keeps track" of how long it's been since you accumulated enmity during a fight.

In that last case, most healers don't even know what those abilities are. There are a lot of players that are very casual, especially considering the state of the game.

Bull****. Our LS regularly runs with 2-3 healers, and I still have to tell them to stop healing me (DPS) instead of the tank. Obviously you're exaggerating the hell out of the MP costs.

I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

[Viridiana]

I was being sarcastic but I'm glad you posted that. Actually in WoW there is now "in-combat" regen, which is something like 1/3 of your other mana regen rate. You can adjust it with equipment and talents.

I'm guessing you didn't notice my response to NoctisUmbra. You're proposing that there is programming in the new patch to determine when you have been idle in incurring enmity. This is quite a leap. What we know of the enmity system is that it is accumulative, meaning values don't drop off and continue to accumulate for the duration of the fight. When you incur a high level of enmity the only way for it to go "down" is for someone else to go higher than you. So if you understand what I am saying there you will understand why I don't think there is a basis for thinking the game "keeps track" of how long it's been since you accumulated enmity during a fight.

In that last case, most healers don't even know what those abilities are. There are a lot of players that are very casual, especially considering the state of the game.



I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

When I was still playing, there was no "default" regen within the five second rule, unless you had said gear or talents. May've changed since then, but whatever. . .

I saw your response to Noc, but I don't think it's. . . correct? Not quite sure what word to use there. I know that the timer used to exist, and it might still actually exist. For all we know, all they did was set the "Lower enmity by this value" number to 0. There'd be no way to tell the difference between that and a complete revamp to the system without seeing the actual coding. I'm not saying that's definitely how they did it, but I could easily see them re-purposing that function for this, even if it means re-introducing it.

Even if you find seven healers who know nothing about tanking, they'll notice real fast when the boss turns around and eats them, again and again, because the tank can't hold aggro. Or when the tank can't stay alive. Or when efforts to keep the tank alive result in the tank being the only one left alive. . .

Okay, edits:

I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

You're saying that 4-5 healers was determined within hours of people getting there. This video was uploaded 3 days after the patch went live. It shows three healers, four archers, and a gladiator tank. You can't even really argue that this was a result of skill (no offense to those involved in the making of the video), because there's so much this group could have done better. Not even counting that they could have triggered drops on purpose, they never cast Stoneskin on the tank after the pull (from what I saw, anyway). They basically got through the fight because they had a resilient tank and a little bit of MP management. Heck, they even spent several hundred MP healing their DPS.

Not bashing the guys that made this video, but if they can take 3 healers in and heal not only the tank but also the DPS, with only one piece of dungeon gear among them (from what I can tell), without even doing everything they can to manage MP, then I have to wonder wth people were doing with 5 mages standing there. . .

[Chardrizard]

Well, before we go there, allow me to suggest.. the quality of your tank had something to do with your healer group size? Your character is fairly well maxed. If you or a character comparable to you were tanking you would have more abilities at your disposal than say someone with only Gladiator ranked. That has a lot to do with how many healers you need.

I'm all for super difficult gameplay. But I don't want it to seem like it's some kind of thing where people weren't paying attention that caused the influx of healers - it was due to how much MP it cost to cast Cure. They tripled to quadrupled the MP cost.. and parties tripled to quadrupled the amount of healers. It's really just as simple as that. Doesn't matter how legit it was.. it was caused by the game design.

So with the current quadrupled MP cost, people have to come up with how to lessen the cure needed. fortunately, there are ways to do it in Darkhold, does people knows about it? or care to find out about it? probably no.

I will show you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbEHwYaG9wE
http://youtu.be/7SrFZKUYz7A?t=11m54s
Both video shows you method how to fight both raid NMs with close ranged melees not taking any damage at all.


Thing is, alot of players, if i were to point out directly, most DPS players that are from FFXI aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to figuring out these things or learns to adapt properly, how many DPS classes at FFXI that bothers with physical damage reduction gear? most only knows how to tank and spank, wait for cures. Neither do they pay attention to what cause what, what triggers what.

[Neptune]

So with the current quadrupled MP cost, people have to come up with how to lessen the cure needed. fortunately, there are ways to do it in Darkhold, does people knows about it? or care to find out about it? probably no.

I will show you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbEHwYaG9wE
http://youtu.be/7SrFZKUYz7A?t=11m54s
Both video shows you method how to fight both raid NMs with close ranged melees not taking any damage at all.


Thing is, alot of players, if i were to point out directly, most DPS players that are from FFXI aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to figuring out these things or learns to adapt properly, how many DPS classes at FFXI that bothers with physical damage reduction gear? most only knows how to tank and spank, wait for cures. Neither do they pay attention to what cause what, what triggers what.

Thanks for posting that for any melee players that happen in here. You make an excellent point, and I couldn't agree with you more about the skill level of a lot of melee players. They're not used to positioning, and only a few are used to the idea of triggering abilities at the right time. The 4-5 healers was set based on the MP costs to cure 1 tank though. If it had been based on curing a whole party of (bad) DPS it would have had to be more healers than that!

[Viridiana]

Thanks for posting that for any melee players that happen in here. You make an excellent point, and I couldn't agree with you more about the skill level of a lot of melee players. They're not used to positioning, and only a few are used to the idea of triggering abilities at the right time. The 4-5 healers was set based on the MP costs to cure 1 tank though. If it had been based on curing a whole party of (bad) DPS it would have had to be more healers than that!

Bull****. Our LS regularly runs with 2-3 healers, and I still have to tell them to stop healing me (DPS) instead of the tank. Obviously you're exaggerating the hell out of the MP costs.