3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

[Kurogaea]

I think you're worrying too much.

Healers have plenty of survive-ability in Wolves Den. Next to Tanks, a good healer is often the hardest target to kill. A lot of the time this leads to squishier targets (Smn's/Blm's/Nin's/Brds. etc) taking way more aggro than healers. Sprinting was not their sole advantage over melee classes either, especially considering stuns stop sprints anyway. Really, there won't be any difference between stunlocks in Feast and WD. A stun target still can't sprint, so nothing changed. Interruptions still work the same way too, so, again, nothing changed.

Not anymore. If they can sprint without using tp then healers are kinda boned. Whats the point of relying on your lack of tp usage other than sprinting when the dps can sprint like that too and melee you to oblivion. Healer survivability just dwindled.

[Februs]

Not anymore. If they can sprint without using tp then healers are kinda boned. Whats the point of relying on your lack of tp usage other than sprinting when the dps can sprint like that too and melee you to oblivion. Healer survivability just dwindled.

I have to disagree.

For melee, the point of hitting sprint is to get close enough to use your gap closer (ie: spineshatter dive etc.) and stun lock the caster. They can do this now, regardless of Tp usage, because the range of those gap closers is already quite large. The only reason a caster has to use sprint is to stay out of that range. This requires careful positioning and situational awareness more than it does the use of sprint. Further, if the healer is using sprint early enough, the melee still won't be able to catch them because the duration timer is the exact same. It's not like melee's have a longer or faster sprint time.

Another thing is that melee already could follow casters in full sprint without draining their Tp. Enliven + Invigorate or Icarus Wings = Sprint on CD. Casual PvP'ers probably don't set up their hot bars to take advantage of this, but Wolves Den players have been doing it since the beginning. A seasoned PvP'er never had any trouble chasing casters around the map while maintaining their attack. Sprint draining the Tp bar was just a formality. For those kinds of players, this is more of a QoL adjustment than it is a game changer, because it doesn't actually change anything. Not to mention the fact that casters have plenty of ways of keeping melee off of them (Binds and sleeps, for example). If the healer is letting the melee get close enough that they have to use sprint, then that's their own fault for not paying attention. All that has changed is that casters have to be more aware of their surrounding.

[xxczx]

Just tested...

Invig:
We are assuming you hit every GCD in the 20sec sprint plus 10sec downtime, that leaves you with 340 TP which gives you a stupid 6s sprint.
If you just hit GCDs in the 20sec sprint and not in the 10sec, you are left with 390 TP so 9sec sprint.

Obviously using Enhanced Enliven changes this and using TP restoration items gives an even more crappy 2nd sprint

To say Dragoon has no TP management (or any melee for that matter) is silly.

[Februs]

Please don't spread false info, thanks.

That's cute, but it's not false info.

I'm not saying that every player out there knows how to manage their Tp, but the tools for Tp conservation have always been available in PvP. Enliven and Icarus Wings are enough to almost fully restore a players Tp. That's plenty of sprint time with no down time on attacking. It's no one's fault but the players if they haven't taken advantage of this. Dragoons have an even greater advantage in that they have one additional skill to replenish Tp. They can literally go from 0 to 100% in the push of 3 buttons, so they should have no issues at all if they're using every tool available to them.

Varied experiences hardly make a difference either. Frontlines is not even worth considering, since you have 24 other players to hide behind if you somehow manage to bottom out your Tp, and there is plenty of downtime in between node spawns to regen without the use of skills or items. Wolves Den is a different story, but the arena is tiny. Even a 3 second sprint in any direction is enough to get a Drg or Mnk within range of their target to use a gap closer (assuming they have Line of Sight). The only thing that is varied about PvP that is relevant to Tp consumption is the skill of the player. Now, if you're trying to say that some players are worse than others, then yes. I would agree with you, but ... so what?

Like I said before, casual or new players might find an advantage with this change because they can suddenly sprint and attack without worrying about having to manually manage their Tp, but this is just a QoL adjustment for players who have been taking full advantage of their Tp restoration moves/items since the beginning. If anything, this change helps level the playing field a little by closing the skill gap between the best of the best PvP'ers and the more casual, feather-weight, players. This is especially the case for seasoned healers. Given how fluid some of them have gotten at cheesing their opponents (Astro, I'm looking at you), it makes sense that SE did something to address the issue.

[Houston009]

You aren't using a gap closer with a stun on healers, right? Like, to close the gap? With no DR?

[xxczx]

They can literally go from 0 to 100% in the push of 3 buttons, so they should have no issues at all if they're using every tool available to them.

RIP Februs' TP 2016-2016.

[Februs]

Yeah, it's false info. You come in here spouting the basics of pvp like dragoon can use icarus wings and gap closers, like it's some sort of startling revaltion, then go on to claim something as asinine as TP management is never an issue.

I'm starting to wonder if you are actually reading the comments or just picking out the things you don't like, because it's pretty clear that you've completely blown by the point.

Yes, I did say that TP management is "never a problem." I suppose that was a bit of a "blanket statement," or, it would be if I was referring to all of the PvP'ers in the game. I'm pretty sure I singled out seasoned Wolves Den players, specifically, who have been managing their TP without much issue since the beginning of the game mode, but fine. If we are going to apply my statement to every single PvP'er in the game, regardless of experience or skill, then yes, this is a false statement ... which was completely not the point of my post at all, so I'm not sure why you're so focused on it.

The point, again and hopefully for the last time, is that PvP'ers have always, since the dawn of Wolves Den, have had MULTIPLE ways to replenish and adequately manage their TP. How is this in any way false information? Seems pretty straight forward to me, so I'm honestly confused how you can even contest it.

for me it's a minimal issue most of the time as I'm very used to altering my playstyle based on TP, but generally, the more TP the better.

The fact that you can argue against having adequate resources to manage your TP, but bust out a statement like this is mind blowing. It would seem that you, yourself, don't have any problems managing your TP. Now, to avoid confusion, I'm not saying that TP is not an issue that needs be "managed and planned around," but can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that it's a "problem" after openly admitting that it's a "minimal issue" for you? How often do you honestly use sprint? When you do, how often do you say, "well, shit. Now I have no Tp left to attack," and completely ignore your Tp regen skills and items? In short, how often is TP management actually a "problem" for you?

To be perfectly clear, I never said that TP management was not important. I never implied that a player should ignore their TP management (in fact, I implied the opposite by mentioning customizing hot bars to include Tp replenishment skills and items). I also never said that it wasn't an important issue in the current Wolves Den for melee players. I simply stated that the tools for managing TP are there to be used, and it is no one's fault but the players if they chose to ignore them. I may have over-simplified my statements on TP management, but I did not think I would have to fully explore when and how a player should be managing their TP. The point, is that they can if they are willing to put the effort in.

Last thing we need in den is dragoons who think they have infinite TP and that their job is to merely get in range of casters to gapclose so that they can stunlock....

This was also a bit of a misunderstanding, but I can take the blame for it because I was not clear. I used to play a lot of PvP as Pld. When I used Sprint, it was typically only using it to stay on top of a target who was sub 70% Hp so that I could apply Full Swing and Stun lock via shield bash, thereby allowing the Dps to zerg it into oblivion. I did not mean to imply that Drg's should also be stun locking. The only reason I singled out Spineshatter dive was because it essentially halts a target's sprint in it's tracks, reducing the effective time of the sprint status, and provides the Drg adequate time to replenish a bit of Tp before continuing to attack (assuming, of course, that the target is worth blowing the stun on). I wrongly assumed you would somehow be following my train of thought without actually explaining it.

[Februs]

More off-topic stuff

You are truly unbelievable lol. What you're basically telling me is that I wasn't clear enough in my language, despite the fact that you are taking several quotes out of context, and that somehow offended you ... Yeah, I can live with that. I could try to sort that mess out, but given your penchant for taking things way out of context and twisting the meaning, I don't want to exhaust myself by formatting a point form list full of tiny details explaining every single misunderstanding you have conjured up. What I will leave with you, though, is this:

• Problem: noun 1. A doubtful or difficult matter requiring a solution.
• Issue: noun 3. A point in a question; an important subject of debate or litigation.

Taken straight out of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, in case you were wondering. I figured that, since you are so keenly interested in precision of language, you should be aware of the fact that there is a difference between a "problem" and an "issue." An issue can be a problem, of course, but not every issue is a problem. It's one of those wonderful words with nuanced meanings. If I can take one thing out of this off-topic conversation, it's that being as clear and concise as possible is much more important than I initially realized, because you never know what someone will read between the lines. I guess I can thank you for making me more aware just how far a couple of out of context or exaggerated words can take a conversation. I'll be more careful to avoid such things in the future.

After that, I'd say this is all wrapped up. Considering that you have blown the whole thing way out of proportion by fixating on one comment about Drg TP (which was really only an example that I used because it was your main) instead of actually focusing on the main point, this is as far as I'm willing to go. If you have problems with TP (and yes, I do mean "problems"), then they are your problems to address. You should be happy with the changes being made. If not, then I guess it won't make a difference to you one way or the other.

[Kurogaea]

...

Dude, just don't bother. We got what you meant I'm sure. I just think someone is reading too deeply into your words to "understand" what your trying to say. I say that in quotes because I doubt they really care by the attitude of their words.

[JzBen]

How will the team ranked work, have they said? Like you pre create a roster within a team and you rank up that team. Or you just q as 4 premade and achieve an "individual" rank for team ranked still? Meaning youre more flexible with how you queue and who you queue with.