There are already two dps-tank jobs, please don't make Paladin the third.

[Brianmj]

Since you're a white mage and also on my server, I'd like to take you into the duty finder with me and prove that little dig at DRK that you made patently false.

Sure, anytime, but I wasn't making a dig at DRKs to dig at them. I'm sorry if it came off as that. The point I was trying to make was more along the lines of, "it's ARR, and we're about to release an expansion, and queues are horrible because so few want to tank, so let's make a dps job that can tank. Also lets give WAR an insane ability and call it Fell Cleave. Yeah, that'll bring them into the tanking fold!" Or, why are the so many WARs and DRKs now, and so few PLDs? You run through the same Ildyshire as I do, you have to have seen this phenomena.

[Ashelia_Ferron]

I don't understand why you think they'll do some major overhaul.

If anything they'll do the following:
1) Increase potency and/or enmity multipliers on certain moves
2) Change or enhance Sword Oath to provide more damage increase
3) Rework/improve skills with questionable/lacking utility (Divine Veil/Clemency)

Other than that, maybe fix TP issues as well, but anything else doesn't seem probable

[Brianmj]

I don't understand why you think they'll do some major overhaul.

If anything they'll do the following:
1) Increase potency and/or enmity multipliers on certain moves
2) Change or enhance Sword Oath to provide more damage increase
3) Rework/improve skills with questionable/lacking utility (Divine Veil/Clemency)

Other than that, maybe fix TP issues as well, but anything else doesn't seem probable

Those adjustments are fine, I guess. Personally, I'd like to see the awkward, forced synergy from Divine Veil be removed. Paladins should just be able to shield the party on their own. I play PLD in PvP, and the job really does shine there. I'm just fearing what "overall adjustments" entail. Square does not take into account PvP when making these adjustments. DRG is a beast, and AST is just freaking ridiculous. I just hope PLD doesn't get warped too much.

[bounddreamer]

Or, why are the so many WARs and DRKs now, and so few PLDs? You run through the same Ildyshire as I do, you have to have seen this phenomena.

I mained WAR before the expansion and I still main WAR now because it's the most fun job to play, for me. I have all three tanks at 60 and I enjoy playing DRK too, but WAR is still my fave. Honestly PLD even with the new HW abilities is still the most vanilla, least fun tank to play. It has a good toolkit of defensive abilities but aside from that, nothing particularly exciting. Even the two new combos aren't as satisfying as a triple Fell Cleave or a Plunge followed by Unleash, Scourge, Delirium combo, Blood Price, all that good stuff.

[Brianmj]

PLD doesn't necessarily need to deal a lot of damage like WAR/DRK, but it needs to contribute to group DPS in some way if it hopes to compete.

Shields! Defense! UNPRECEDENTED PHYSICAL MITIGATION! Defender of the party!

patch 3.2

Now everyone, here's your raid wide attack increase!

O_o

Honestly PLD even with the new HW abilities is still the most vanilla, least fun tank to play. It has a good toolkit of defensive abilities but aside from that, nothing particularly exciting..

WAR is options galore, and complex. A healer, tank, and dps rolled into one will no doubt appeal to many, especially one that has so many tools at it's disposal. Paladins basic design also has appeal. Pop one cooldown, I have 30% damage reduction, pop another, now I have 70% mitigation, pop another, now 95%. NOW IM FREAKING INVINCIBLE. Surely there are others that find appeal in doing one role and doing it well.

[Claymore65]

WAR is options galore, and complex. A healer, tank, and dps rolled into one will no doubt appeal to many, especially one that has so many tools at it's disposal. Paladins basic design also has appeal. Pop one cooldown, I have 30% damage reduction, pop another, now I have 70% mitigation, pop another, now 95%. NOW IM FREAKING INVINCIBLE. Surely there are others that find appeal in doing one role and doing it well.

Important Math misconception! You don't actually get "95%" reduced damage from combining cooldowns like that. The damage mitigation isn't completely additive, otherwise it would probably be possible to get above 100% mitigation, which means you should hypothetically heal damage from being attacked.

Using some very rough math, let's say an attack deals 100 points of damage to you. You have two cooldowns, both of which reduces damage by 50%. Hypothetically, that should grant you 100% damage reduction, meaning you take no damage, right? (50% + 50% = 100%, or 100 - 50 - 50 = 0)

However, that's not actually how it works. Each one is applied to the total damage sequentially. So, in this simple example, the first cooldown reduces the total damage by 50 Points (100 - (.5 * 100) => 100 - 50 = 50). The second cooldown then activates. This reduces the total damage by 25 points (50 - (.5 * 50) => 50 - 25 = 25). In the end, you will take 25 damage, even though you were "supposed" to take 0 damage. The total mitigation of the two abilities combined is 75%, not 100%.

That's not to say stacking cooldowns is ineffective in the slightest, but it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. I don't disagree with the spirit of your argument (the "Iron Wall" tank is fun), but I wanted to correct the math on that.

[Brianmj]

Important Math misconception! You don't actually get "95%" reduced damage from combining cooldowns like that. The damage mitigation isn't completely additive, otherwise it would probably be possible to get above 100% mitigation, which means you should hypothetically heal damage from being attacked.

Using some very rough math, let's say an attack deals 100 points of damage to you. You have two cooldowns, both of which reduces damage by 50%. Hypothetically, that should grant you 100% damage reduction, meaning you take no damage, right? (50% + 50% = 100%, or 100 - 50 - 50 = 0)

However, that's not actually how it works. Each one is applied to the total damage sequentially. So, in this simple example, the first cooldown reduces the total damage by 50 Points (100 - (.5 * 100) => 100 - 50 = 50). The second cooldown then activates. This reduces the total damage by 25 points (50 - (.5 * 50) => 50 - 25 = 25). In the end, you will take 25 damage, even though you were "supposed" to take 0 damage. The total mitigation of the two abilities combined is 75%, not 100%.

That's not to say stacking cooldowns is ineffective in the slightest, but it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. I don't disagree with the spirit of your argument (the "Iron Wall" tank is fun), but I wanted to correct the math on that.

Thank you so much for this! I leveled Paladin for the experience of being up close to the monster cause most of my play time in FF14 was spent in the back line as a WHM/SMN - completely oblivious to what happened up front. I never learned the finer details of the role. Information like this is always appreciated.

[RecklessLion]

I agree with theverything opening here. And it\\'s kind of funny but people arguing the tanking being Balance between theach three. Meh I don\\'t see it at all. I think pld and DRK take damage better then War due to the fact grit and shield oath is an active. While you have to prep storms path and IB for incoming damage. Still I have to give it to PLD, why their the easiest to master and dominates on the defensive scale. You have grit + rampart or sentinel or if a physical mob rage of halone which is your emnity combo every 30secs you have a guaranteed block, your flash blinds the enemy which acts as a more improved swift foot and that's on top of grit. And of course hallowed Grounds which have zero repercussions for use. people try to argue the single skill but if you put it together as a whole on top of clemency PLD sits well as the wall for tanks. You can try to compare and but it will fall short to a PLD unless magic is involved. So naw I don't think they need more dps.

[RecklessLion]

I really hate my phone and it's auto corrects.......

[Marxam]

Shields! Defense! UNPRECEDENTED PHYSICAL MITIGATION! Defender of the party!

While I do agree with you that we really don't need another dps tank, I pretty sure that a dmg increase won't potentially happen for pld due to these reasons:

1) next raid is "mechanic" focused meaning less emphasis on dps and more on co-ordination and proper movement. (sure people will still try for phase pushes but we know what happens when that goes wrong ex. t7)
2) STR is having its value decreased for tank and VIT is now included as a modifier meaning PLD, and all tanks will have their eHP effectively increased while possibly still doing the same damage as with full str.
3) the balance for tanking is only skewed because of how Gordias Savage was tuned (dps focused) so naturally the lowest dealing tank will be pushed out. This may resolve itself when 3.2 drops and people realize that s no longer the issue.


SE really likes to balance everything so I doubt they would increase PLD damage right away without seeing how the community will react to it in 3.2. If its still poorly, which I doubt, then hotfix, if not then stay the course. The only reason why WAR seems so powerful is because people like to see big numbers. I know this because I get a bit giddy when I see a 10k+ clemency heal. Imo the only changes that needs to be addressed for PLD are as follows:

1) Shelltron gives back 30 tp in addition to mp.
2) lower the cost of Clemency so that you can cast 3 at full mp and reduce it cast time to 2.5. Keep the interrupt to avoid reliance on the skill. imo its another cd and needs to be used properly instead of just spamming it.
3) lower the cd of Divine Veil from 150 to 120 sec and allow any cure, including Clemency, to proc it.
4) move the start of Hallowed Ground's effect to the start of its animation instead of the end. (probably not gonna happen but this has pissed me off since 2.0)