There are already two dps-tank jobs, please don't make Paladin the third.

[Duelle]

Hallowed Ground may have the strongest "effect" from a defensive CD, but due to its obscene CD, it is probably one of the least effective in a fight. It will never reduce as much damage as Rampart, Sentinel or IB over the course of 7 minutes.

That's not exactly a good metric to use. I'll admit that part of the issue with Hallowed Ground is that it's one of those "identity" things that got a pass when they implemented PLD (hence why in the JP version the ability is called Invincible after its FFXI counterpart). Expecting it to be used frequently as is would be beyond unreasonable since it negates all incoming damage with no attached downside (no damage penalty while active, no loss of all aggro upon use).

Now whether people would be willing to lose Hallowed Ground in place of something that can be used more regularly remains to be seen. I spoke out against HG back in 1.23 because I've seen invincibilities get out of hand before, so I'd shed no tears if HG were to leave us.

Frequency of availability makes CDs "better". There is a reason Vengeance and Inner Beast are the "best" defensive tools.

You're ignoring differences in gameplay. PLD is designed as a traditional tank with cooldowns that are supposed to be used during oh shit moments. WAR is designed partly around active mitigation, which is why Inner Beast works the way it does. PLD defensive cooldowns and what WAR has in their place serve very different purposes. Or at least, they're supposed to serve different purposes.

Cover is there for thematic purposes and is almost useless.

Oh if only someone were to come up with a better version of Cover.

Awareness is difficult to calculate in terms of eHP and you can never predict what damage it prevented. Unless it's used in a scenario where crits are 100% guaranted.

Agreed. This was a bad idea from the start and IMO has always been a waste of a slot. The only fight that justified its existence was Shiva EX when in bow mode. Then with 3.0 WAR gets more mileage out of it because of how it negates the downside of Raw Intuition.

Sheltron shoots itself in the foot with its timing and bosses not stopping auto-attacks while casting potentially popping the block with an auto only so you eat that 23k buster and blocks never precede crits. Again, damage type limited CD.

I think part of the problem here is that doing anything else with Sheltron invalidates Bulwark on some level.

It could have easily been a "block every attack for the next 10 seconds" type of ability, but at that point they might as well just redesign Bulwark to work like this and replace Sheltron with something else. That might not be a bad idea, actually...

Doesn't matter if you can pretend to be able to heal yourself for 1200 potency and or pad your HP by 10% if the reaction time for those is retardedly long. Paladin doing anything trying to cast those will first have to wait 2.5 seconds GCD, then cast for 3 seconds.

This is an obvious knock on Clemency, so I'll present to you the choice. You either get hybrid utility with its inherent downsides/opportunity cost (and Clemency to be anywhere near balanced absolutely needs to have an opportunity cost if it can be used on party members), or you get an instant self heal on a 20-25s cooldown.

The reason there is a blatant problem with PLD: PLD is taxed by lower DPS and 0 raid DPS contribution for an imaginary defensive advantage that does not exist, nor is needed in the current meta.

This doesn't paint the whole picture. The truth of the matter is that PLD was designed around a certain paradigm and playstyle, but the game has made that paradigm ineffective partly through developer decisions (DPS race-focused encounters) and partly through the player-created metagame (circumventing tank staples by being able to pump out more damage than intended for a tank via WAR triple Fel Cleaves et al).

The issue was so deep that SE had to change the tank's main damage stat, re-evaluating and looking at tank traits, AND shifting from sever DPS checks to mechanic checks in the upcoming savage instead of just simply buffing PLD and/or nerfing the other tanks.

Depending on how far they went with the changes (really wish they would talk about this in detail instead of making us wait for patch notes), this is either a step in the right direction or a band-aid on a bullet wound.

[Aaliyahrose]

I think part of the problem here is that doing anything else with Sheltron invalidates Bulwark on some level.

It could have easily been a "block every attack for the next 10 seconds" type of ability, but at that point they might as well just redesign Bulwark to work like this and replace Sheltron with something else. That might not be a bad idea, actually...

The Sheltron ability was designed block attacks that require timing i.e. Thordan's cleve attack or A3S hand swipe. These of which do enough damage that cause healers to throw out a Cure 2 or Lustrate. It also restores mana, so you can continue to Stoneskin/Clemency you or a party member.

[Duelle]

The Sheltron ability was designed block attacks that require timing i.e. Thordan's cleve attack or A3S hand swipe. These of which do enough damage that cause healers to throw out a Cure 2 or Lustrate. It also restores mana, so you can continue to Stoneskin/Clemency you or a party member.

Except that, as established, boss auto-attacks can consume Sheltron and you're SOL at that point. Timed blocks work in games that require precise gameplay (see: Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, the Soul Calibur games). FFXIV is far from that and a different approach to that ability should be considered.

I'd be willing to start by reducing the duration of Sheltron to 5s and making it block all incoming attacks and see how that goes. This way you can go for that illusion of timed blocking while not making the ability overpowered nor making it easy for it to go to waste.

[Violette]

Except that, as established, boss auto-attacks can consume Sheltron and you're SOL at that point. Timed blocks work in games that require precise gameplay (see: Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, the Soul Calibur games). FFXIV is far from that and a different approach to that ability should be considered.

I'd be willing to start by reducing the duration of Sheltron to 5s and making it block all incoming attacks and see how that goes. This way you can go for that illusion of timed blocking while not making the ability overpowered nor making it easy for it to go to waste.

Thing is, as we can see with Heavenly Heel, it's wonderful against PHYSICAL tank busters with a cast.
It'd eat Flatten for breakfast. It's more victim of circumstance than a bad ability.

[Shurrikhan]

Except that, as established, boss auto-attacks can consume Sheltron and you're SOL at that point. Timed blocks work in games that require precise gameplay (see: Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, the Soul Calibur games). FFXIV is far from that and a different approach to that ability should be considered.

I'd be willing to start by reducing the duration of Sheltron to 5s and making it block all incoming attacks and see how that goes. This way you can go for that illusion of timed blocking while not making the ability overpowered nor making it easy for it to go to waste.

I'd honestly just prefer to see changes in terms of AAs no longer being able to go off simultaneously or near-simultaneously with tank busters. Beyond that, Shelltron is easy enough to time. I've never lost a Shelltron meant for Thordan's cleave or heel on an AA, or even prior to a rotorswipe or Caduceus cleave in minsynced T4/T1. For its animation and the niche it seems intended to fill, an extended block would make a lot more sense, and would certainly give it more significance in AoE pulls, but I don't think it's exactly necessary either. First block + 1.5 seconds thereafter would be more than enough time. I'd be more inclined to say that it and/or Bulwark's inability to affect magic damage taken whatsoever are larger points of evidence of a broken toolkit.

[Duelle]

Thing is, as we can see with Heavenly Heel, it's wonderful against PHYSICAL tank busters with a cast.
It'd eat Flatten for breakfast. It's more victim of circumstance than a bad ability.

At least in my own experiences, auto attacks still process while a boss is midcast and preparing high damage attacks, so the element that devalues Sheltron is there. If the intent of the ability is to guarantee a block because of a big incoming hit, turning it into guaranteed blocking for 5s basically meets that intent while giving some leeway.

For its animation and the niche it seems intended to fill, an extended block would make a lot more sense, and would certainly give it more significance in AoE pulls, but I don't think it's exactly necessary either. First block + 1.5 seconds thereafter would be more than enough time. I'd be more inclined to say that it and/or Bulwark's inability to affect magic damage taken whatsoever are larger points of evidence of a broken toolkit.

5 seconds isn't that much time, to be honest. Uptime would still be pretty low considering it'd still have a 30s cooldown.

The devs have already said something to the effect of never allowing shields to block/mitigate magic, so that particular point is not worth pursuing at the moment.

[Shurrikhan]

At least in my own experiences, auto attacks still process while a boss is midcast and preparing high damage attacks, so the element that devalues Sheltron is there. If the intent of the ability is to guarantee a block because of a big incoming hit, turning it into guaranteed blocking for 5s basically meets that intent while giving some leeway.

5 seconds isn't that much time, to be honest. Uptime would still be pretty low considering it'd still have a 30s cooldown.

Right, I just find that this fact makes zero sense. The animations literally stop, but the AAs continue, or can be unleashed immediately before the actual tank-buster. It looks and feels terrible. Rather than using this to promote a fix to Shelltron itself, I wish they'd just get that shit out of the game. The game already feels plentifully unreactive without clipping or muting mob animations. That said, I also still think that 5 seconds is far longer than is needed to fulfill that intent. With 5 seconds, I could block literally every mob in front of me while moving towards gather on a sprint pull, or have an extra Inner Beast at no cost (30% every 30 seconds vs. 20% every 19-23 seconds +/- Infuriate).

Edit: Just got through a Ex rl Moratorium where I spent what felt like one in every 9 GCDs self-healing. He cast exactly 9 single-target heals in a 3 1/2 minute fight, only two of them on me leaving me at 2k hp to continue spamming Boil. I don't think I've ever loved Shelltron's MP generation so much. Sadly, if Shelltron was made more useful or reliable in these other contexts, we might well lose that MP generation. That'd be fine for OT position, or if, as PLDs cry out in terror, Riot Blade's MP generation were increased to compensate, but I've gotten through so much on the virtue of Clemency as timing Shelltron (as finicky as it is) well that I'm really afraid of any balancing nerfs.

[Duelle]

Right, I just find that this fact makes zero sense. The animations literally stop, but the AAs continue, or can be unleashed immediately before the actual tank-buster. It looks and feels terrible. Rather than using this to promote a fix to Shelltron itself, I wish they'd just get that shit out of the game. The game already feels plentifully unreactive without clipping or muting mob animations.

I might be wrong in this, but I get the feeling it'd affect the flow of battle on some level. Granted, auto-attack damage from boss mobs is not huge damage so this might not be as big a problem as I'm thinking.

That said, I also still think that 5 seconds is far longer than is needed to fulfill that intent. With 5 seconds, I could block literally every mob in front of me while moving towards gather on a sprint pull, or have an extra Inner Beast at no cost (30% every 30 seconds vs. 20% every 19-23 seconds +/- Infuriate).

Assuming our beloved animation/activation delay remains in the game, you'd probably end up getting 3-4 seconds in total under the effect. In fairness the effect could be reduced to 3 seconds, but that'd require lowering the cooldown some as well, IMO.

Just got through a Ex rl Moratorium where I spent what felt like one in every 9 GCDs self-healing. He cast exactly 9 single-target heals in a 3 1/2 minute fight, only two of them on me leaving me at 2k hp to continue spamming Boil. I don't think I've ever loved Shelltron's MP generation so much. Sadly, if Shelltron was made more useful or reliable in these other contexts, we might well lose that MP generation.

Assuming they were to make Sheltron "reliable", what I think that'd do is require a removal/redesign of Bulwark (going back to my point on Sheltron and Bulwark conflicting). That could result in it being replaced by another MP recovery tool.

I know they will never do it, but wouldn't it be awesome if PLD had the Dragon's Dogma Mystic Knight ability Magic Cannon? We could summon it then everyone in the party could then auto-attack the orb to rain death on the battlefield.

Well, while I mentioned DD only because of how you're rewarded for perfect blocking with a shield, yeah this would be pretty neat. And yeah, SE would never do this.

[therpgfanatic]

Except that, as established, boss auto-attacks can consume Sheltron and you're SOL at that point. Timed blocks work in games that require precise gameplay (see: Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, the Soul Calibur games). FFXIV is far from that and a different approach to that ability should be considered.

I know they will never do it, but wouldn't it be awesome if PLD had the Dragon's Dogma Mystic Knight ability Magic Cannon? We could summon it then everyone in the party could then auto-attack the orb to rain death on the battlefield.

If you have to dodge an AOE and can't auto attack then that's a personal problem or you're not strafing. SwO is really strong and is why, as an OT, PLD is pretty competitive. I think touching SwO isn't really a thing they should do, though there are probably ways they could go about it.

Think harder about what I am referring to here. I dodge AoE just fine. What I can't control is when auto-attack triggers. No one can.

"Burst damage" and "auto-attack" cannot be part of the same sentence. Sword Oath contributes nothing to burst damage, which is a key mechanic in many fights these days where even the tank needs to burst down either an enemy or a floating orb in order to prevent the boss from casting the party wipe spell. Paladins are the weakest tank when it comes to this, because we cannot burst and Sword Oath and it's effect of adding 50 potency to an auto-attack rather than a flat % increase to all damage is a key candidate for changing to address the burst issue.

I am well familiar with the auto-attack arguments. Ironically Paladins in WoW had a similar mechanic with an aura and people, even other Paladins players made all kinds of ridiculous arguments about how it was superior to improve auto-attack damage than over-all skills. This went on from vanilla to WoTLK expansion. Guess what, the developers finally made the change to allow for burst and almost overnight PLD DPS being weak was never an issue of debate again.

Sword Oath is an impractical skill in a game that requires players -- especially the tank -- to move around constantly. You cannot trigger auto-attack on command, so it can't be easily employed.

So you'd put PLD back to using 1 combo forever? Dunno if that's such a good idea.

I don't have any problem with one combo for damage. PLDs got enough to deal with since our mitigation is largely built around popping cooldowns, and fights that make the tank run all over the map mean we sometimes have to abandon the combos before we finish them anyway. It's more annoying than useful to have three combos which all require three GCDs to gain their benefits.