Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

[Kosmos992k]

With regards to overall balance of the trinity, the factor that presents the largets issue is the simple fact that all jobs have to be viable for solo play. Beyond that though, the ratio of damage between the roles needs to be DD >> Tank > Healer. Put whatever numbers seem right in there, the basic rule needs to be Damage Dealers being clearly superior to tanks in dps terms. In turn tanks should do better dps than healers. There is no need to repeat the basics of the trinity; we know them, but lets stop pretending that tanks should be doing DD numbers, they shouldn't even be close,

[Instrumentality]

It's hard to say—like I said, I'm not a developer or a numbers guru. 85% in general is probably too high since if the tanks are, well, tanking, their DPS shouldn't be that close, and much of Savage does require active tanking from both tanks at various points, even if there are phases where they're mainly just DPS. If tanks were at 85-90% in a 100% DPS-focused encounter (like the OT on say, Titan HM would be—not that anyone used one for it, but you'll take my meaning), it would be a lot different. But they're performing an entirely separate role and still closing in on the lower DPS classes. That's just too much, especially when you consider that BRD/MCH have a "support tax" for their MP/TP regen abilities, even if they aren't using them in a given encounter.

80% feels better to me, but 75% or something lower might be better in practice, and I certainly don't expect the game to necessarily be balanced around my gut feelings, because balance depends a lot on encounter design, overall rotation difficulty, and a lot of other things. All I've said is that I think they're probably too high.

That doesn't mean they're "out of control," just that they probably need some adjustment for the overall game's balance. I suspect even without any further modification, the accessory adjustments in 3.2 will probably widen the gap enough.

All savage bosses are 100% dps focused encounters. You need to spend zero time in tank stance for any of them (except A4S if you are tanking the laser in the final phase, which is less than 30 seconds of the 13 minute long fight).

So...? I dunno, it seems like what you are saying you want already exist, the content simply isn't tuned correctly to require tank stance so of course tank dps appears to be incredibly high?

Edit: I think I basically agree with you? But I don't think tank numbers need to be changed. Content needs to be tuned properly so that tanks are forced to use their stances that reduce their dps ability, not just have their overall output cut (since, as mentioned, it makes soloing very frustrating).

[Alahra]

So...? I dunno, it seems like what you are saying you want already exist, the content simply isn't tuned correctly to require tank stance so of course tank dps appears to be incredibly high?

Actually, yes, I think a large part of the problem is the content itself, which was tuned in such a way that VIT accessories and tank stance were barely necessary. If tanks were in VIT accessories in Savage (which is, presumably, what the developers balanced around when they designed all of the 50+ abilities and the new classes), we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Of course, it's not just Savage where the problem exists. Pretty much all of the level 60 content is undertuned to such a degree in terms of incoming damage that VIT was completely unnecessary (interestingly, this problem doesn't seem to exist in the HW leveling dungeons—you can get through them with STR accessories, but it's notably more difficult in my experience). It's always interesting when I run with a tank who has only started tanking in the post-HW era (and only has STR accessories as a result) in a L50 Roulette—watching them faceplant because they don't realize how much harder it is to go full STR in the older content makes me giggle (unless I'm healing, and then I get irritated >.>).

Edit: I think I basically agree with you? But I don't think tank numbers need to be changed. Content needs to be tuned properly so that tanks are forced to use their stances that reduce their dps ability, not just have their overall output cut (since, as mentioned, it makes soloing very frustrating).

Pretty much, I think we do. It's just that you can adjust the disparity in three different ways ways: through the encounters themselves, through the available gear, or through class changes. I don't particularly care which method they use (and it looks like they're going to be doing a mix of all three really). If I implied that I wanted to see tank nerfs specifically, I didn't mean to—I'm much more of the opinion that if they're going to do anything about it with class changes alone, it should just be by making BRD/MCH better (selfishly, I also want NIN buffs because I miss the days of being more competitive with DRGs, but I know we're positioned more as a utility DPS now and we're plenty fine).

[Kosmos992k]

Not to defend Nektulos, but I am curious what catch-all you WOULD use for females. For males it's guy, as you use yourself in this post, but what would you use for females? Girl? Woman? Lady? Madam?

Well, he had several choices, not least of which is my name, or gender neutral terms such as poster.

In terms of non-native english speakers, I can understand that 'girl' is a term for a younger female in terms of pure definition, but it also carries the connotation of a child or immature female. In the context of this topic and the exchange of posts, the term was used in a way that was not neutral and was intended (IMHO) to be dismissive.

It doesn't matter though, Nektulos had ample choice of terms that are civil and neutral, and chose to use one that can vary considerably in meaning and implication based on the context. To be honest, I have lost count of the number of times I have seen players with female avatars referred to as 'girls' or 'little girls' in order to demean their point of view. It's quite common in online forums, for people with a weak argument to turn to such tactics instead of leaning on the merits of their argument.

[MugenMugetsu]

The issue is that WAR DPS is through the roof (as is DRK, and PLD is too high).

If you'd like the statistics for Thordan, here is the link http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/4/#class=Any

In this case, WAR performs better than in A1S, where they are ahead of both BRD and MCH and put out 85% of the top DPS job (MNK at 981) at the 75 percentile.



If you're curious as to how I think it should be balanced, this roughly how I'd like to see damage numbers. (numbers are to give a general scope and not actual balanced numbers)

Single target
MNK 100%
NIN 98%
DRG 96%
BLM 95%
SMN 90%
BRD 80% (depending on song use, without song use numbers would be higher)
MCH 80% (depending on turret use, without support use numbers would be higher)
WAR 45%
DRK 40%
PLD 35%
SCH 15%
WHM/AST 10%

AoE
SMN 100%
BLM 95%
MNK 80%
BRD 90%
MCH 90%
DRG 75%
NIN 70%
WAR 20%
DRK 15%
PLD 10%
SCH 20%
WHM 15%
AST 10%

give or take, but that general spectrum. In other words, a WAR should be pulling less than half of the top DPS, not 70-85%.

I'm so glad that you're not in charge of making decisions for SE. I'm definitely not in agreement with your numbers and I've noticed that you're not a big fan of a giant sword, or a giant axe, being weapons that cause great amounts of damage when used to attack mobs. As far as you having stated that Pld is also doing "too much" dps....I think that statement is mostly false as it seems that the one thing that Plds do not excel at is DPS.

Why you are so concerned about tanks not only being able to do their job, but also use the attacks given to them by SE to output DPS with something other than a limp wet noodle is beyond me. Without a tank any group is not going to be getting much content done. Tanks dedicate their time to helping a group by being the "meat shield". Tanks should also be allowed to have fun and put out nice DPS numbers. Besides, when the rest of the party goes down, and the boss is at 2% health, would you prefer that the tank save the day in a clutch situation or would you prefer that the tank tickle the mob with his/her weapon and take the wipe because it pains you so to see tanks put out good DPS numbers?

[Kyros]

I find it hilarious people are complaining about a Tank's DPS when it isn't tanking.

What, you want us to hit noodles when we're not on a tank stance. Do you want healers to not be able to solo beastmen quests as well?

80% of a DPS's damage when focusing on doing damage is about right. You people need to remember that we're not tanking all the time, and in fact a large, very large portion of tanking involves not tanking. That is why WAR's are all over the place in FFlogs, they are either OTing in full DPS mode and/or having minimun uptime on Defiance.

In other words, a WAR should be pulling less than half of the top DPS, not 70-85%.

Thank god you are not part of the development team. This is by far the stupidest idea Ive seen today. Not only thematically, but practically: tanks would need Enmity x15 moves to keep hate off DPS's that way. It would break self-heals and drains, DRK/PLD's mp management, etc. Basically with an idea like that you'd need some seriously stupid modifiers to make things work (This attack hits for 500 damage, but restores 1500 HP, wut). On top of that, it would hurt Tank's ability to do Open-World Content (Fates, Quests, Beastmen, etc), and we'd be completely useless when not tanking.

Ever seen a healer twiddling their thumbs doing nothing when there's no healing to be done? That'd be us tanks, over half the time. I'm not looking forward to being a dead weight if I'm not the MT, thanks.

[Kaurie]

I'm so glad that you're not in charge of making decisions for SE. I'm definitely not in agreement with your numbers and I've noticed that you're not a big fan of a giant sword, or a giant axe, being weapons that cause great amounts of damage when used to attack mobs. As far as you having stated that Pld is also doing "too much" dps....I think that statement is mostly false as it seems that the one thing that Plds do not excel at is DPS.

Why you are so concerned about tanks not only being able to do their job, but also use the attacks given to them by SE to output DPS with something other than a limp wet noodle is beyond me. Without a tank any group is not going to be getting much content done. Tanks dedicate their time to helping a group by being the "meat shield". Tanks should also be allowed to have fun and put out nice DPS numbers. Besides, when the rest of the party goes down, and the boss is at 2% health, would you prefer that the tank save the day in a clutch situation or would you prefer that the tank tickle the mob with his/her weapon and take the wipe because it pains you so to see tanks put out good DPS numbers?

I am not 100% sure what the point is in parts of your post, but I'll try to respond. I'm sorry if I misunderstand.

Indeed, I have a very different preference for the game than the devs and likely a lot of the playerbase. I'd prefer if tanks did minimal damage, healers didn't do damage, parsers were implemented, raids were more about coordination, mechanics and CC than about pulling high DPS and high HPS. I'd prefer if there were traits and specializations added to the game, attributes applied to every job and gear had more interesting stats on them. I'd prefer if things like positionals for melee, and enochian for BLM didn't exist. I'd prefer if crafting was simplistic and gathering had no barrier to entry. Conversely, we have this game. Despite all of this, FFXIV is still one of the better (if not the best) MMO out there and receives my monthly sub for it.

You're right, I hate two-handed weapons, but I am not sure where I've ever stated that on the forums. I personally just like sword and shield more stylistically. That said, I am not opposed to two-handed weapons being in the game. As for damage, I think that all non DPS do too much damage, but WAR and DRK stand above the rest in this. As for your comment about PLD not excelling at DPS, they don't excel at it compared to WAR/DRK, but they still pull decent numbers. So in this sense, it's all relative.

I am concerned about a great many things in this game. Warrior damage does not top my list, but that is the topic of conversation, so I contributed my thoughts. If I were to take the list I had above and put it in terms of importance to me, I'd have:

1. Traits added
2. Specs added
3. Gear have interesting stats and variation
4. Attributes affect all jobs
5. BLM loses enochian
6. Melee lose positionals
7. Parsers are added
8. Raids (and dungeons?) add CC importance
9. Gathering had little barrier to entry
10. Crafting was made simplistic
Then not on my list
11. Housing was made available to everyone for free
12. Housing would be made fully customizable
13. Mindless grinds were removed
14. Eso cap would be placed on purchasing rather than spending (allow gearing of multiple jobs)
15. Tank damage nerfed significantly
16. Healer damage nerfed moderately
17. Allow jobs to use different types of weapons (sick of using a book)

I am not sure what you are using the limp wet noodle as a metaphor for? Are you suggesting that I am suggesting tanks have a crappy weapon or something?

As for your note on the 2% wipe, I mean we could throw this in many directions. But let's say the healer and tnak die and now it's just a BLM. The BLM doesn't have the HP and defense to save the day. So we should probably buff BLM so they can tank in these situations, give them a number of cooldowns so they can tank as effectively as like 85% of a real tank. If not, then like why not, we want the BLM to save the day if the tank and healer fail miserably.

I find it hilarious people are complaining about a Tank's DPS when it isn't tanking.

What, you want us to hit noodles when we're not on a tank stance. Do you want healers to not be able to solo beastmen quests as well?

80% of a DPS's damage when focusing on doing damage is about right. You people need to remember that we're not tanking all the time, and in fact a large, very large portion of tanking involves not tanking. That is why WAR's are all over the place in FFlogs, they are either OTing in full DPS mode and/or having minimun uptime on Defiance.



Thank god you are not part of the development team. This is by far the stupidest idea Ive seen today. Not only thematically, but practically: tanks would need Enmity x15 moves to keep hate off DPS's that way. It would break self-heals and drains, DRK/PLD's mp management, etc. Basically with an idea like that you'd need some seriously stupid modifiers to make things work (This attack hits for 500 damage, but restores 1500 HP, wut). On top of that, it would hurt Tank's ability to do Open-World Content (Fates, Quests, Beastmen, etc), and we'd be completely useless when not tanking.

Ever seen a healer twiddling their thumbs doing nothing when there's no healing to be done? That'd be us tanks, over half the time. I'm not looking forward to being a dead weight if I'm not the MT, thanks.

I am well aware that these are due to DPS stances. That means little to me and my argument though. I do not believe a Tank should be able to put out 80% of a DPS's numbers while in a DPS stance with DPS accessories.

[MugenMugetsu]

Valid opinion...

Let's agree to disagree. I've been following this thread and ultimately, while any of us can voice our opinions on the matter and provide numbers and statistics that are more agreeable with what we would like to see as DPS percentages by job, it's going to be up to SE to determine how much DPS any job actually does.

Personally, I feel that if tank DPS is decreased at all, by changing the damage modifier to VIT, the decrease will not be that much and there really isn't anything to be concerned about.

[Kaurie]

Indeed! I think we all have our varied opinions on balance, and I also think there is natural reaction to be slightly over defensive if someone suggests a massive nerf to a job you put the most hours in to.

I don't actually think that SE should make the nerf to that extent in a patch. That is way too large of a nerf to throw out there in a short time-frame. I'd be happy if they gradually worked towards that though. I hope there is a slight nerf with the VIT/STR changes, as it seems a little bit over-the-top to me right now.

[Instrumentality]

I don't understand why you think tanks should do such little damage. Throughout all of your post you've never expressed any reason other than "Because".

It just seems so arbitrarily brutal?