Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

[Kaurie]

I don't understand why we even have to compete for class damage ratios since this is ultimately a co-operative game. You're not even supposed to be fighting your team mates for whoever has the bigger sword(d*ck).

Nerfing tank contribution to miniscule amounts ultimately just hurts everyone. I mean, whats the point? Just so the DPS can be the actual players in the fight and tanks and healers are reduced to sidekicks whom are only there to glorify the DPS classes?
I don't understand why we can't even have anything above half of what a DPS can do. Something considerably significant.

Like if you were a party of four adventurers going up against a fearsome dragon of ultimate death and you(the edgy thief with 1000 knives of dark bloodshed) want your Knight(a warrior armed to the friggin teeth for BATTLE) to wield a pool noodle because his sword detracts from your narutoxsasukexichigo awesomeness.

I am not sure if I convey myself appropriately, but I am not competing for the highest number. I mean, I am always trying to maximize my potential and my static mates and I kid around about these things, but yes we work as a team. That does not mean that I promote a game system that is as imbalanced as it is right now. To be honest, I find your argument to be rather offensive, as if the only reason why I would possibly want the game to be balanced is because of some sense of not feeling adequate.

My stance has nothing to do with feelings of self inadequacy and fully to do with wanting to play a game that is balanced. That said, I am sorry that my proposal of nerfing WAR damage is such a threat to your primary.

Personally, I play this game in large part due to the strict trinity. If I did not want a trinity, I'd play Guild Wars 2, because outside of that, it's a superior game. The combat is much more fluid, the trait system is fun and involved, the open world content is more fun and engaging, the pvp is vastly better and so on. Guild Wars 2 fails because their end game pve is reduced to throwing out as much DPS as you can and revolves little around actual team work and coordination (in comparison to this game).

[Instrumentality]

Personally, I play this game in large part due to the strict trinity. If I did not want a trinity, I'd play Guild Wars 2, because outside of that, it's a superior game. The combat is much more fluid, the trait system is fun and involved, the open world content is more fun and engaging, the pvp is vastly better and so on. Guild Wars 2 fails because their end game pve is reduced to throwing out as much DPS as you can and revolves little around actual team work and coordination (in comparison to this game).

How does tanks doing "large" amounts of damage harm the trinity? (large in comparison to...what, healers?)

Tanks at the absolute top tier of play aren't out damaging dps, and that remains true for every level of play you care to examine through every percentile examinable on fflogs.

Why does tanks even being close matter?

If I'm wrong, and my ideas are pig-headed. Why are they 13 pages?

There are only four pages for me, and I haven't seen many people agreeing with you (at all, anywhere).

Still hiding your tank character (that doesn't even have 210 jewelry on it), I guess?

[Alahra]

Why does tanks even being close matter?

Because if they get too close, they might start replacing DPS in parties becasue of their increased survivability (and in the case of WARs, utility). You could reasonably make the same argument regarding 2.0 BRDs—why did it matter if their DPS was close to MNK/DRG DPS? It mattered because BRDs (and casters) were generally more favored in party setups than melee DPS.

I'm not saying we're at that point yet, but the potential for something like that to occur is there if tank DPS were to scale too well in the future.

[Kaurie]

How does tanks doing "large" amounts of damage harm the trinity? (large in comparison to...what, healers?)

Tanks at the absolute top tier of play aren't out damaging dps, and that remains true for every level of play you care to examine through every percentile examinable on fflogs.

Why does tanks even being close matter?
?

They are out DPSing certain DPS jobs in certain fights (i.e. definitely beating BRD/MCH in Ravana EX for example) Granted, mostly it is just very close. Close in the way that a SMN is to a DRG on Manipulator, or a NIN is to a MNK on living liquid.

Doing 85% of the damage of the top DPS harms the trinity, imo.

Regardless, I honestly don't care to argue this any further. We clearly have different opinions and neither one of ours is going to change anything.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

They are out DPSing certain DPS jobs in certain fights (i.e. definitely beating BRD/MCH in Ravana EX for example) Granted, mostly it is just very close. Close in the way that a SMN is to a DRG on Manipulator, or a NIN is to a MNK on living liquid.

Doing 85% of the damage of the top DPS harms the trinity, imo.

Regardless, I honestly don't care to argue this any further. We clearly have different opinions and neither one of ours is going to change anything.

If tanks do very little damage, it also harms Trinity. =3

[FallenWings]

Snip

*phew*

Logically speaking even at a 75% output of real DPS you would still require the superior output of real DPS especially at a progression level since the extra survivability, as we can see with the tank STR meta, is largely irrelevant.

If by example you had 6 War's and 2 Healers instead of the usual party setup, you'd lose out on a raid wide DPS of -100%. Pretty much one man less than an actual 4 DPS setup. This huge disparity will break fights and it just means that 6 tank shenanigans is truly only feasible when people are overgeared as it would be with anything else.

The extra survivability is worthless if its ultimately a net loss of DPS. And really, by the point that you could run it with 6 tanks, running it with the regular setup would be vastly superior(assuming competent play is taken account for).

Anyone willingly running the 6 tank setup to be lazy for mechanics are probably already skilled enough to run it regularly. It's harmless player-devised strategy at that point that doesn't really hurt anyone.

There are multiple of other factors of stacking classes that are less than desirable such as the reduced LB bar growth and loss of unique buffs and debuffs that are more than likely required for the progression of the fight.

At the end of the day, even a 5% difference, people would naturally take the stronger one just to either have the edge and the difference just continues to stack up with more people in a fight.

To me 60-80% is a sweetspot, strong enough to be a considerable chunk of raid wide DPS, but weak enough to not completely replace the DDs.

We have different opinions for how balance should be based on our own experiences and I personally don't see any issue with the current ratios as they're, aside from DPS stanced BRDS and MCH, reasonably balanced in the context of the fight designs.

I don't know about Guild Wars 2 but that really just sounds like they don't even have a semblance of Tank/Healer roles whereas here, it is ultimately still the main priority of the respective classes and the DPS contribution is just the icing on the cake that was missing.

If we get pure mechanic only fight with abysmal DPS checks that even that Ice Mage in Duty Finder could pass, you probably have a point. But then that's ultimately just bad fight design, as if the developers completely forgot about the DPS capabilities of class as shown by the players. Nobody wins then.

Excuse me if I insulted you or sounded rude. They weren't directed at you specifically and were mostly just examples of personal disdain for the attitudes of unreasonable people.

[Alahra]

To me 60-80% is a sweetspot, strong enough to be a considerable chunk of raid wide DPS, but weak enough to not completely replace the DDs.

I think I agree in general—but right now, tanks are definitely hovering around that 80% number, which is problematic because that's also around where BRD and MCH hover compared to the other DPS. Tanks shouldn't be competing with BRD/MCH in DPS, in my opinion. There should be a perceptible gap between them. At most a tank should be doing like 90% of a BRD/MCH's DPS and that's arguably too close, especially given how both classes require relatively high execution to perform well with WM/GB (not to mention the strict nature of Wildfire burst for MCH).

If we get pure mechanic only fight with abysmal DPS checks that even that Ice Mage in Duty Finder could pass, you probably have a point. But then that's ultimately just bad fight design, as if the developers completely forgot about the DPS capabilities of class as shown by the players. Nobody wins then.

Thordan EX got a pretty early 7 WAR clear, didn't it? I don't follow that stuff too closely so I'm not sure how geared the group was or anything, though.

[Instrumentality]

I think I agree in general—but right now, tanks are definitely hovering around that 80% number, which is problematic because that's also around where BRD and MCH hover compared to the other DPS. Tanks shouldn't be competing with BRD/MCH in DPS, in my opinion. There should be a perceptible gap between them. At most a tank should be doing like 90% of a BRD/MCH's DPS and that's arguably too close, especially given how both classes require relatively high execution to perform well with WM/GB (not to mention the strict nature of Wildfire burst for MCH).

If you take a gander at fflogs parses for all bosses of savage Alexander (at 75th, 80th, 90th, and 99th percentile) you'll notice that what you think should be the case is already reality. (Where squeezing out every tiny percent of a percent gain is necessary).

Where it is not true is the absolute middle of the road players (50th percentile) where ninja falls off dramatically in comparison to all other dps.

The only fight where tanks are in general above the 90% of mch/brd dps margin you mentioned is A4S, and that's DRK and not WAR. :v

[Alahra]

The only fight where tanks are in general above the 90% of mch/brd dps margin you mentioned is A4S, and that's DRK and not WAR. :v

But I also said that 90% might be too close, and overall I think it probably is. But I'm not a numbers guru or a developer, so I don't want to come down and say that one number is the perfect ratio. (And I think DRK DPS is too high as well, not just WAR. PLD is obviously nowhere near problematic at this point.)

Of course, it's quite likely that the forthcoming change to accessories is going to address this, anyway, creating just enough space between tanks and BRD/MCH that it probably won't be an issue anymore.

[Instrumentality]

But I also said that 90% might be too close, and overall I think it probably is.

I understand the rest of what you're saying, but what I was saying was that tanks everywhere in savage (except a4s and only for one job) are already doing less than 90% of BRD/MCH. (It's more like 85-87%.) And the only reason that happens is because sacrificing the BRD/MCH is the most sensible thing generally (and tanks their dps).

So it's not like tank numbers are very out of control right now at all? Like if they drop another percent or three (at most) overall it should be perfectly fine?