Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

[Alahra]

(This is not, we're talking game design)

Even in terms of design, things are probably a bit out of line, at least for a game that's supposed to be a Trinity game. Tanks, while tanking, are currently pulling DPS that's pretty close to support DPS (about 85% of their output, from discussion earlier in the thread), while fulfilling the entire job of a separate role in the party that's not a DPS.

Meanwhile, BRDs/MCHs are giving up the same amount of DPS potential, relative to the "full" DPS for utility that isn't even necessary if everyone manages their resources properly and doesn't die. While the general tiered structure makes sense (primary DPS > support DPS > tank), the gaps are currently too narrow. An offtank doing 85% of a BRD's DPS wouldn't be such a bad thing, since they have the potential to offer another service to the party, the same way BRD/MCH have the potential to offer another service to the party.

The problem is ultimately that main tanks are hitting that 85% number, at the same time as they're offering the utility of being a tank. If that's fine for main tanks, it should honestly be fine for BRD/MCH to do their full DPS while offering support functions, too (i.e., Paeon/Ballad wouldn't have an additional damage penalty on top of them). Of course, the main thing at fault here is the content, but as mentioned previously, we can't really assess class balance in a vacuum (heck, witness PLD, which has a lot of theoretically nice utility, absolutely none of which has any notable application in the game right now).

I am not sure if it's that the DPS rotation is much more simple for tanks than it is for DPS, or that tanks are generally played by better players.

I think this does play a factor. Tanks have very little in the way of oGCD stuff to manage, fewer timers/DoTs to worry about, and fewer buttons to press than melee do. Just as using melee as an example example, 11 of a DRK's 27 abilities are important for single-target DPS (12 if you count Dark Dance while MTing for Low Blow proc fishing), while 18 of a NIN's 27 are important for single-target DPS. MNKs are at 16 and DRG is at an astounding 21, for comparison. WARs are probably the most complex tank with 15 main buttons for single-target DPS, which makes them about on par with MNK (which is probably the least complex of the three melee—it just deals with the responsibility of Greased Lightning and all of that).

This is no doubt by design, of course, as tanks traditionally have other things to worry about which have historically prevented players from choosing that role, leading to bottlenecks in party formations. By simplifying their "rotational" demands, the barrier for entry is lowered, ultimately increasing the number of tanks in the game. (There's something similar at play with Healers in FFXIV). That's a good thing, but if the encounter balance, gear balance, and class balance isn't properly maintained, it can lead to other issues, like what we see with tanks in the game right now.

need to tell the WAR to keep Eye up, or get rid of them

If good WARs grew on trees, I would gladly do so, but unfortunately, they're in short supply on our server. Sometimes you have to work with the hand you've been dealt. If we didn't stick with this WAR and try to help him get better, we simply wouldn't be raiding at all.

We don't raid at a world-first level and I know that my muscle memory getting the best of me on occasion is an excuse, and it's something I work to get better at every time we step into raid. Unfortunately, since WARs are, again, rare on my Data Center, I don't get a lot of opportunities to play with them (I'm far more often paired with PLDs and DRKs in the DF, which is more opportunity for my muscle memory to remain ingrained), so the work is always a matter of continual improvement.

There's still absolutely no reason for you to be condescending.

[Kyros]

need to tell the WAR to keep Eye up, or get rid of them

Just to chime on this, the actual best thing you can do is communicate. Despite what you may think, keeping SE up is not always a priority. The start of final phase in A3S or the final Mortal Revolution for example are places where you only get one combo off and you want it to be SP, so having the NIN do DE there would benefit everybody.

I personally tell him when I'm probably gonna let SE fall off one or two GCD's. It usually only happens when I have to do a Swap, be away from the boss, or need to do SP and have no time for the SE, but they do happen and expecting 100% uptime is unrealistic.

Edit: To answer the above post

The problem is ultimately that main tanks are hitting that 85% number, at the same time as they're offering the utility of being a tank.

In my experience, parses where the "Main Tank" is getting close to the DPS are fights where the actual fight mechancis are enabling this. Oppresor is a good example: Tanks have near 100% uptime on the boss, while DPS typically have to deal with the adds (And good DPS often have to hold back). The DPS number isn't telling you the whole picture: had the tank dealt with this mechanics his numbers would be similarly lower.

Also, a tank competing with a BRD for the fourth slot isn't a worrying thing. A BRD is giving up DPS to support, a Tank in offense stance is giving up Tankiness for DPS. Combined, the effect being close should be obvious (BRD losing DPS, Tank gaining DPS). NIN is pretty much in the same boat and the one people are often keen to talk about, because its true damage is not shown (It's often spread among party members).

And then there's comparison to DPS that aren't trading anything to DPS. Compare the top BLM/DRG/MNK to the top non-tanking (IE Full damage) WAR and you'll be looking at numebrs closer to 74%. The best MT tank I've seen barely scratcehs 71% of the top DPS in fflogs, on a fight that benefits the Tank.

[Mycow8me]

snip

[Alahra]

In my experience, parses where the "Main Tank" is getting close to the DPS are fights where the actual fight mechancis are enabling this.

I acknowledged this in my post actually:

Of course, the main thing at fault here is the content, but as mentioned previously, we can't really assess class balance in a vacuum (heck, witness PLD, which has a lot of theoretically nice utility, absolutely none of which has any notable application in the game right now).

As I've said in a couple different ways in the thread, I don't necessarily thank tank's DPS potential needs to be reduced, so much as the content needs to be designed in a way that their potential is reduced as much as everyone else's potential is by fight mechanics and the like. DPS on Oppressor lose uptime on the boss for adds and baiting Resin, as you mentioned, and tanks don't. The design that the developers were aiming for is that tanks lose DPS by being in tank stance (and also wearing VIT accessories) rather than because of mechanics, but for reasons we'll never know, they completely boned that. It's ultimately the encounter (and item) balance that's the largest part of the tank DPS problem, with some improper balancing of skills contributing to a small degree (but only mainly in the differences between the three tanks, since PLD is noticeably weaker than the other two).

When it comes to how tanks stack up against the other DPS, I generally don't have much issue. I've also mentioned that the crux of it for me—why it's such a problem—centers around BRD/MCH's place on the metaphorical totem pole. You can deal with the problem in several ways, my personal choice for which is to buff BRD/MCH because buffs are good in the eyes of the community and nerfs are doubleplus ungood, in general.

[Zumi]

What MMO is this?

All of the MMOs I've ever played (from EverQuest 1 in 2000 to Lineage 2 to WoW to SWTOR to tons of other no names kmmos) this has never been true?

WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps. In FFXI most of the time tanks were doing not much damage at all. Most of the mmos I played had tanks focus on getting more hp or damage mitigation and not dps.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps

If DPS do 150k, and tanks did 25k in this game.

I would have a Monk Tanking.

[Zumi]

If DPS do 150k, and tanks did 25k in this game.

I would have a Monk Tanking.

Well in that game you are dead in 1-2 hits max if you pull the boss off a tank they pretty much make it impossible for someone who is not a tank to tank.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Well in that game you are dead in 1-2 hits max if you pull the boss off a tank they pretty much make it impossible for someone who is not a tank to tank.

Who ever said WoW was a good, fun game?

[Kyros]

Well in that game you are dead in 1-2 hits max if you pull the boss off a tank they pretty much make it impossible for someone who is not a tank to tank.

Isn't WoW plagued with the "2 tanks for 40-people raid" problem? Seems like poor design to me.

[Instrumentality]

WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps. In FFXI most of the time tanks were doing not much damage at all. Most of the mmos I played had tanks focus on getting more hp or damage mitigation and not dps.

This does not seem to be true from what world of logs says about tank dps and dps dps on mythic raid tiers?

Like...not at all?