Don't be "that DPS"

[Artemiz]

If the tank is bad then that's his/her fault for not researching their role/class properly, potentially forcing the 3/7 others to carry him/her. So I don't know where you get off thinking it's a DPS issue. Multidotting is key to being a good DPS, and should not be limited by a bad tank, no excuses (Shadewalker can be used in such situations).

I said it was a group effort in the very quote you posted, DPS are part of that group if you hadn't noticed. I like how you say no excuses too like gear level differences and skill differences aren't a thing.

Funny how Nita and Artemiz preach it's a groupwide effort but only find faults in those playing DPS.

Maybe that's because I was responding to someone who was refusing to take resonsibility for there own action as a DPS and the fact that this entire thread is about bad DPS. You should stop posting silly pictures and do more reading, you could do with the practice.

[nitaZ28]

I know it's a groupwide effort. This is a thread about "that" DPS (read: B_A_D) and so that's why I rip on them. If we were on a thread about "that" tank or "that" healer, I'd rip on them. Believe me, I've seen enough mopeds spread across the MMORPG highway from all roles. I normally tank or heal simply so as to minimize the chances I'll be saddled into a group with dopes at the two key steering wheels.

In my 15+ years of experience in games of this sort though, "that" player seems to gravitate towards DPS roles. Mainly, I have found that tanks and healers that stink do so because they are ignorant. Most DPS that stink are ignorant too, but they sure as hell don't seem to know it. DPS stinking isn't always readily apparent, as a good tank or healer can spackle over the cracks. Teachable moments go by the wayside, and l337DPSd00d34913 marches on his merry way thinking he's doin' alright. When a tank/healer effs up, everybody knows and points it out.

[Ossom]

Lol, as a Dps and a Healer and a Tank I'm going to spread my dots on everything, if the other people in the party can not handle the minute threat that generates and that causes a wipe then so be it. I'm going to spread my dots when we finish wiping and go back to that same pull too. If that causes us to wipe again then so be it. After that is done. Guess what I am going to do, I am going to go back to that very same pull and..

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spread my dots. Why? because it doesn't really generate a lot of threat that one Overpower/Circle of Scorn/ Whatever Drk's has can't take off of me (Unless I decide to go heavy on my smn but then again I have quelling for that) If a tank can not hold threat, then they are a bad tank. There is no reason in the world besides a Brd/Mch/Blm getting lucky crits on a boss pull that a tank shouldn't be able to hold threat.

If you can not hold threat, there are no if/ands/buts about it, you are a bad tank. Don't judge others at this point, you are doing poorly yourself.

You guys wanna scream "But my iLv?", the funny thing is, every instance is iLv synced but expert, as in "You are an expert at the game/your class to the point where you can handle the most basic of responsibilities for your class. "

[Artemiz]

Lol, as a Dps and a Healer and a Tank I'm going to spread my dots on everything, if the other people in the party can not handle the minute threat that generates and that causes a wipe then so be it. I'm going to spread my dots when we finish wiping and go back to that same pull too. If that causes us to wipe again then so be it. After that is done. Guess what I am going to do, I am going to go back to that very same pull and..

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spread my dots. Why? because it doesn't really generate a lot of threat that one Overpower/Circle of Scorn/ Whatever Drk's has can't take off of me (Unless I decide to go heavy on my smn but then again I have quelling for that) If a tank can not hold threat, then they are a bad tank. There is no reason in the world besides a Brd/Mch/Blm getting lucky crits on a boss pull that a tank shouldn't be able to hold threat.

If you can not hold threat, there are no if/ands/buts about it, you are a bad tank. Don't judge others at this point, you are doing poorly yourself.

You guys wanna scream "But my iLv?", the funny thing is, every instance is iLv synced but expert, as in "You are an expert at the game/your class to the point where you can handle the most basic of responsibilities for your class. "

Where has this spreading DoTs thing come from? That's not even the debate that is going on, we're talking about switching targets or throttling back a bit if you're going to take hate. A tank that doen't even generate enough AoE threat to withstand a couple of DoT's is obviously terrible but it will be the healer taking hate in that instance 99% of the time anyway.

As for ilvl, people do level 60 content where the ilvl difference can be a whopping 65 levels, I don't care how pro you think you are you're not making that up. Not only that but the leveling progression of each job is not equally linear, some DPS jobs get damage boosting abilities or traits in the 30's for example but PLD doesn't get it's tanking stance until 40, that makes it much harder to keep hate for those 10 levels for PLD. Even on the road from 50-60 we see a situation where you get a new set of gear every even number of level and a new dungeon every odd number. That means if you're doing the dungeon at the minimum level you haven't had a chance to gear up since the last set of dungeons yet the DPS might have. In addition to that this game has never sync'd down gear appropriately (sync'd players are more powerful than level appropriate) and it's easy to see how a tank can struggle with hate from time to time.

Ideally we'd all like to go balls to the wall all the time but sometimes it's just not possible and it's not always the tanks fault. Sometimes in the circumstance you just have to do your best with what you've got to work with. Being belligerent and refusing to change (as in the example you gave) doesn't make you the better player in that situation, it makes you part of the problem, unless you're doing expert content where high level experienced players are required such as trials and raids. For dungeons though, just work with what you've got and don't expect perfection otherwise you will be sorely disappointed.

[Malicewolf]

I'm not playing this game with you sweetie. What you fail to understand leads to the constant fallacies and preconceived notions you keep assuming. I don't need to spoon feed you when to stop, moderate, other obvious details, or silly things like optimizing your job when you can't make it function at a basic level. When you can't it work, then its not the time to optimize. If you want to be on top of a parser then stop, this is not the topic to be advocating your silly savage top PLD DPS junk. And don't lie to me about it's not about parsers, you're the one here pushing for avoiding flash solely for it doing no damage and delaying the time it takes to strike only ONE thing with RoH which already takes 5 seconds to get to, and the DR on its secondary effect doesn't change that. It does nobody good when you have no control. And yes the whole fake junk is the meta. All they care about is damage to meet parsers on an overtuned savage that has nothing to do with leveling or the vast majority of the game. If you want to deal damage 24/7 to a group of enemies, then play as warrior or dark knight. It's absurd that someone would be so bent on doing damage races as a PLD when it is in fact the very thing paladin most of all do not excel at and then to push it on others when they can't make the threat work. If you wanna force players to conform to you're refusal to direct and/or AoE threat, then have fun dragging the party down with your negligence.

So more real talk. You either cause threat to them all fast or DPS and/or healers will simply takes control no matter what they do. It's as simple as that. If you can't do that then you got almost no business blaming DPS or healers for anything you refuse to do. Again some of us will always AoE, in fact I'm pretty sure all of us except BLMs have AoEs to use in our normal routine vs anything so neglecting to apply threat on all enemies at the same time is especially bad. You do know that right? Switching targets constantly is bad on DPS because some need their DoTs on the current target for their moves to function, resistance debuffs don't affect any other than the one they were applied to, having to move more for positionals, and you'll be further away from using your execute type moves. Naturally this excludes the times you must switch for target of priority such as bees, totem poles, or boss adds that must die. But course I have to say it for you in- however vain- hopes that get the message, which you won't.

Can't wait to see what part of this you fail to read again.

Also don't confuse party responsibilities with individual responsibilities.

Wow, I've never seen more incorrect statements about PLD in my life... But not surprised it's coming from a WAR. As someone who mains a PLD, Februs is 100% totally right. And you Riis, are almost 100% incorrect. To spam flash between EVERY attack is simply bad tanking. It's not simply about maximizing damage or making parsing numbers. You are simply wasting time and mitigation. Even in large mobs, I do not use even half the amount of flashes you would. Do you also simply spam Overpower until you're out of TP then blame the DPS for not killing the mob fast enough? Because that is essentially the equivalent argument for WAR tanking based on how you think a PLD should tank.

As Februs stated, blind is resisted after 3 flashes. If you are pulling a huge mob like you are talking about, a CoS with FoF and a flash or 2 would hold aggro. After that, you should be rotating your enmity combo to gain a LEAD on hate on the mob targets as needed. After that, it's about effective management. Throwing out another flash if your DPS are big AoE hitters. I mean, jeez, while you're at it, why don't you just stop attacking all together and flash all day long. Maybe throw in a riot blade for some MP since you're wasting it so much.

Normally I wouldn't be so salty, but everything said just made me shiver. We're talking about competent PLD tanking. Not incompetent tanking that "could pass". That's the kind of stuff you see in sastasha man. Not end game.

[Almalexia]

Do you also simply spam Overpower until you're out of TP then blame the DPS for not killing the mob fast enough?

This is usually a good metric. If you're tapped out on the first pull and everything is only down to 50% HP, it's going to be one of those dungeons.

Maybe the DPS are afraid they'll take hate.

[RiisWolf]

This is usually a good metric. If you're tapped out on the first pull and everything is only down to 50% HP, it's going to be one of those dungeons.

Maybe the DPS are afraid they'll take hate.

Wouldn't be a surprise. AoEs are hard pressed for a reason after all. Very bad reasons by the way.

And normally after 3 or 5 I stop to build up steel cyclone and/or take advantage of Vengence+Beserk+Maim+foresight+Bloodbath and get 2K~3K HP after every AoE assuming I'm tanking more than 6 enemies. By the time I'm done I'll be pacified above 400TP and with absolutely no way DPS outthreating me. If less than 6 adds are still alive then I focus them down, because I'm free to do that, instead of constantly worrying about threat.

And as a Paladin I'm not going to talk about it since apparently Malice also can't so much as to read and think for himself. He even thinks too far ahead. Leveling tanks shouldn't worry about Savage.

[Malicewolf]

And as a Paladin I'm not going to talk about it since apparently Malice also can't so much as to read and think for himself. He even thinks too far ahead. Leveling tanks shouldn't worry about Savage.

I can read and think for myself just fine. My opinion is that you are misinformed on how a PLD should hold threat. You're sitting there saying spamming our flash between every single hit is effective. It is not. You will take more damage than you need AND generate less enmity on the targets you NEED to gain enmity on. Flash is not an all powerful enmity generator. RoH will prove much more efficient if you know how to use it correctly. Simple facts. It's not that you HAVE to do so or that we're sitting here saying, "this is the only way". But I would never tell a new tank to spam flash that much, let alone expect an experienced PLD to do so. Yes, it's a DPS's job to burn down enemies, but there is indeed a reason why tanks don't all use flash and only flash. Because, while keeping hate is our JOB, it is not the only thing expected of us. You don't see tanks yelling out "Hey, I'm just supposed to hold hate, don't expect ANYTHING else from me" while they spam flash and refuse to hit targets for damage. I don't necessarily disagree with your points about DPS expectations, but your statements about PLD are simply incorrect and horrid. Every party differs and a good tank will vary his play style around his TEAM.

And even as a leveling tank, there are things you learn, like not to spam only flash as a PLD. While it may not interrupt your combos, it sure as heck will slow them down. You go from needing 5 seconds to get a RoH out, to this:
Fast blade - 2.5s
Flash - 2.5s
Savage blade - 2.5s
Flash - 2.5s
Rage of Halone - 2.5s

Please tell me how 5 seconds was so horrid now? Februs never said you couldn't use an AoE at the start of a pull to gain hate on everything. In fact, I believe he even gave a BETTER alternative to how to hold at the start, which required less flash spamming as you stated you would continue that combo above indefinitely until the mob dies.

[JerinRycik]

Haha, I intentionally open with Bio II, Miasma, Bio hard casts just so the tank can keep up. Then the race for hate begins!

[ShanaShirayuki]

Snip

I never said anything about a low gear level, if that was the case I'd understand. My response was directly aimed at your comment of how if a tank is bad then it's still the DPSs fault for pulling aggro.

If you're going to debate someone, don't take his or her words and twist them to fit your argument, makes you seem more ignorant than the point you were trying to make. I'll also disregard your improper use of "there", even if you insulted my reading comprehension. If all you can do is attack the person and not their argument, then don't even bother replying.