Don't be "that DPS"

[Malicewolf]

I'm not playing this game with you sweetie. What you fail to understand leads to the constant fallacies and preconceived notions you keep assuming. I don't need to spoon feed you when to stop, moderate, other obvious details, or silly things like optimizing your job when you can't make it function at a basic level. When you can't it work, then its not the time to optimize. If you want to be on top of a parser then stop, this is not the topic to be advocating your silly savage top PLD DPS junk. And don't lie to me about it's not about parsers, you're the one here pushing for avoiding flash solely for it doing no damage and delaying the time it takes to strike only ONE thing with RoH which already takes 5 seconds to get to, and the DR on its secondary effect doesn't change that. It does nobody good when you have no control. And yes the whole fake junk is the meta. All they care about is damage to meet parsers on an overtuned savage that has nothing to do with leveling or the vast majority of the game. If you want to deal damage 24/7 to a group of enemies, then play as warrior or dark knight. It's absurd that someone would be so bent on doing damage races as a PLD when it is in fact the very thing paladin most of all do not excel at and then to push it on others when they can't make the threat work. If you wanna force players to conform to you're refusal to direct and/or AoE threat, then have fun dragging the party down with your negligence.

So more real talk. You either cause threat to them all fast or DPS and/or healers will simply takes control no matter what they do. It's as simple as that. If you can't do that then you got almost no business blaming DPS or healers for anything you refuse to do. Again some of us will always AoE, in fact I'm pretty sure all of us except BLMs have AoEs to use in our normal routine vs anything so neglecting to apply threat on all enemies at the same time is especially bad. You do know that right? Switching targets constantly is bad on DPS because some need their DoTs on the current target for their moves to function, resistance debuffs don't affect any other than the one they were applied to, having to move more for positionals, and you'll be further away from using your execute type moves. Naturally this excludes the times you must switch for target of priority such as bees, totem poles, or boss adds that must die. But course I have to say it for you in- however vain- hopes that get the message, which you won't.

Can't wait to see what part of this you fail to read again.

Also don't confuse party responsibilities with individual responsibilities.

Wow, I've never seen more incorrect statements about PLD in my life... But not surprised it's coming from a WAR. As someone who mains a PLD, Februs is 100% totally right. And you Riis, are almost 100% incorrect. To spam flash between EVERY attack is simply bad tanking. It's not simply about maximizing damage or making parsing numbers. You are simply wasting time and mitigation. Even in large mobs, I do not use even half the amount of flashes you would. Do you also simply spam Overpower until you're out of TP then blame the DPS for not killing the mob fast enough? Because that is essentially the equivalent argument for WAR tanking based on how you think a PLD should tank.

As Februs stated, blind is resisted after 3 flashes. If you are pulling a huge mob like you are talking about, a CoS with FoF and a flash or 2 would hold aggro. After that, you should be rotating your enmity combo to gain a LEAD on hate on the mob targets as needed. After that, it's about effective management. Throwing out another flash if your DPS are big AoE hitters. I mean, jeez, while you're at it, why don't you just stop attacking all together and flash all day long. Maybe throw in a riot blade for some MP since you're wasting it so much.

Normally I wouldn't be so salty, but everything said just made me shiver. We're talking about competent PLD tanking. Not incompetent tanking that "could pass". That's the kind of stuff you see in sastasha man. Not end game.

[Almalexia]

Do you also simply spam Overpower until you're out of TP then blame the DPS for not killing the mob fast enough?

This is usually a good metric. If you're tapped out on the first pull and everything is only down to 50% HP, it's going to be one of those dungeons.

Maybe the DPS are afraid they'll take hate.

[RiisWolf]

This is usually a good metric. If you're tapped out on the first pull and everything is only down to 50% HP, it's going to be one of those dungeons.

Maybe the DPS are afraid they'll take hate.

Wouldn't be a surprise. AoEs are hard pressed for a reason after all. Very bad reasons by the way.

And normally after 3 or 5 I stop to build up steel cyclone and/or take advantage of Vengence+Beserk+Maim+foresight+Bloodbath and get 2K~3K HP after every AoE assuming I'm tanking more than 6 enemies. By the time I'm done I'll be pacified above 400TP and with absolutely no way DPS outthreating me. If less than 6 adds are still alive then I focus them down, because I'm free to do that, instead of constantly worrying about threat.

And as a Paladin I'm not going to talk about it since apparently Malice also can't so much as to read and think for himself. He even thinks too far ahead. Leveling tanks shouldn't worry about Savage.

[Malicewolf]

And as a Paladin I'm not going to talk about it since apparently Malice also can't so much as to read and think for himself. He even thinks too far ahead. Leveling tanks shouldn't worry about Savage.

I can read and think for myself just fine. My opinion is that you are misinformed on how a PLD should hold threat. You're sitting there saying spamming our flash between every single hit is effective. It is not. You will take more damage than you need AND generate less enmity on the targets you NEED to gain enmity on. Flash is not an all powerful enmity generator. RoH will prove much more efficient if you know how to use it correctly. Simple facts. It's not that you HAVE to do so or that we're sitting here saying, "this is the only way". But I would never tell a new tank to spam flash that much, let alone expect an experienced PLD to do so. Yes, it's a DPS's job to burn down enemies, but there is indeed a reason why tanks don't all use flash and only flash. Because, while keeping hate is our JOB, it is not the only thing expected of us. You don't see tanks yelling out "Hey, I'm just supposed to hold hate, don't expect ANYTHING else from me" while they spam flash and refuse to hit targets for damage. I don't necessarily disagree with your points about DPS expectations, but your statements about PLD are simply incorrect and horrid. Every party differs and a good tank will vary his play style around his TEAM.

And even as a leveling tank, there are things you learn, like not to spam only flash as a PLD. While it may not interrupt your combos, it sure as heck will slow them down. You go from needing 5 seconds to get a RoH out, to this:
Fast blade - 2.5s
Flash - 2.5s
Savage blade - 2.5s
Flash - 2.5s
Rage of Halone - 2.5s

Please tell me how 5 seconds was so horrid now? Februs never said you couldn't use an AoE at the start of a pull to gain hate on everything. In fact, I believe he even gave a BETTER alternative to how to hold at the start, which required less flash spamming as you stated you would continue that combo above indefinitely until the mob dies.

[RiisWolf]

In fact, I believe he even gave a BETTER alternative to how to hold at the start, which required less flash spamming as you stated you would continue that combo above indefinitely until the mob dies.

Do you know what a fallacy, emphasizing, exaggeration, and moderation are?

Clearly there is some part of this you do not understand.

Fallacy: Attacking me rather than only my argument. Jumping to extreme nobody said. I never said do no damage, I even said it in

No. It's not healthy to do absolutely no damage. It's not healthy to obsess over doing more damage while ignoring the weaknesses the job has that prevents you from doing as much as others.

It is different from me calling you out on it because you really aren't paying attention.

Exaggeration: Yes, I said Strike and Flash five times, but where in that did I say to do that constantly or any specific number?

Emphasis: Before you say constant stream of threat and blinds. That is refering to Sheild lob>circle of scorn>flash>fast blade>Flash>Savage blade>Flash>Rage of Halone. Threat>threat>threat>normal>threat>threat>threat>threat. What part of that did you fail to comprehend?

Moderation: Yes, I said Strike and Flash five times, exaggeration aside, are serious!? You really think I implied do that indefinitely? It is as simple as that. There is a point to stop. I feel like I am talking to a stupid person having to NEED to say in moderation, but apparently I put too much faith in some of those reading this.

Also I have already said what happens when you fail to establish threat on all targets, I do not need to again. You can flash after spending all of 7.5 seconds not doing so at all to get ONE thing at a time which reduces the damage on only the one you applied it to, and let any good DPS who AoEs or is not attacking your target will take control in less than 5 seconds. And if you honestly believe that weaving flash is enough to make you lose control of your main target, assuming you did not switch at all, then it is you who has problems.

Remember, Rage of Halone gets only one, which already takes 5 seconds to get to, flash gets all those near, which you can use between combos.

Your reply to me is inconsistent and full of a lot of assumptions. I never said Flash all powerful, and I never said threat was the tanks' ONLY responsibility, I said

Hate is the tank's responsibility.

If you spent less time twisting what I say to make yourself seem like you had some clue, then you would have gotten that. I am not going to start on how going from, You're sitting there saying spamming our flash between every single hit is effective. It is not, to Yes, it's a DPS's job to burn down enemies, but there is indeed a reason why tanks don't all use flash and only flash. is just dumb.

Also to answer that: Please tell me how 5 seconds was so horrid now?
But first. .. to Februs never said you couldn't use an AoE at the start of a pull to gain hate on everything.
Februs is just another thoughtless troll aiming to fight/insult me, twist arguments in his favor and say nothing right while being in his magical wonderland where you DON'T USE SHEILD LOB>CIRCLE OF SCORN ON EVERYTHING! But since you wanna all confused at the slightest thing I say. You start by using Shield Lob then Circle of Scorn on everything. The only time you do not do that is vs an add like the spiny plume or adds you want to keep asleep/bound, or for whatever reason you were in melee range already in which case do not use shield lob. You always start at a distance. That easily is the single most thoughtless thing I would be putting up with if I was not already ignoring him.

Second) 5 seconds is actually more than enough time to lose threat on anything you are not directly attacking. I do not need to say it again. But by the time you get done with shield lob>circle of scorn>flash. Somebody would have already busted out AoEs, buffs, debuffs, DoTs and threat onto more than one enemy. That is not to mention someone not attacking your target all together.

This includes: cards, buffs, healing, barriers, HoTs, gravity, areo3, holy, assize, pet cleave, swiftcast shadow flare, foe requiem, flaming arrow, rain of death, Bishop, tri-disaster+bane, painflare, Tridisaster+bane+painflare+fester+DTW+deathflare, Enkindle, thunder+thundercloud/swiftcast thunder on others, dragonfire dive, Geirskogul, shoulder charge into elixir field and/or howling fist, arm of the destroyer, rockbreaker, haton, doton.

I am not going to tell you what the follow-ups could POSSIBLY be.

Third) While you go on with fast blade>savage blade>Rage of Halone. You can enjoy the zero threat you are applying to anything you are not targeting as the others proceed to melt the entire mob as the healer heals you. Especially if you have the fortune of getting a DPS who actually knows how to kill all enemies fast (does not matter how), which many DPS do not know how to do.

Four) Simple fact of the matter is that because blind is random and makes literal zeros. You cannot know if using flash later will make you take less damage or using it sooner. You will most likely take more damage by not applying the blind at all. By most likely, the enemies may still hit you everytime, and also for that last bit alone is why you do not consider the DR blind has if you are considering using it a fourth time.

Five) Bravo for doing more damage, did you keep agro? Better not be a no because then you are not going it right.

Lastly) Again if you think that weaving flash at all is going to hurt your agro on a single target among others, assuming you did not switch targets to spread single target threat/damage, then it is just you with the problem.

Go back read and really read. Less preconceived garbage. No more fallacies. No more idealism on what should what work over what ACTUALLY works. No DPS meta. Keep it real.
Or don't. I am pretty much done with you just so I do not waste my time finding out what other thing is you failed to understand for the third time

[Malicewolf]

By the way, as a main tank player in this game. It's easy. All you have to do is strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash. Flash does not interrupt combos, so it is a constant stream of threat and blinds. None of this complicated fake junk that the meta might have you believe.

The above implies that this is all that is needed. If you're going to do the above, you are being ineffective. As you stated you were exaggerating, I was exaggerating as well by saying, "you might as well not attack and just spam flash".

And though you keep saying Februs and I are "attacking" you, it's actually the other way around (well, ok, maybe I attacked you first, but that's cause you spouted non sense on a perfectly legit answer from Februs). You seem to be fine providing MORE than enough details to defend yourself, but lack having it when making your initial point. Which is why people like Februs and I chime in to begin with. You can't go, "I said this, but I meant that!" and then when we say, hey, "this" is wrong, "that" would work better" you come back with "I didn't realize you were stupid". No. We're not. You were lacking details, while spouting off other things, such as the 1st quote i posted above.

As I stated before, I don't necessarily disagree with some of the statements you're making. But some others are simply flawed. Especially the one's you spat out towards Februs. What he stated was simply a better way. Not the "parsers way" or w/e you had initially called it.

I seldom lose hate on mobs. If I do, I almost immediately grab it back before it even hits someone. I do not spam flash between every attack and I hold large mob pulls just fine. I get my necessary flashes to grab the mob and establish a lead, then I do my rotation while cycling through the mob to ensure I stay ahead of the DPS. It's fairly easy to see which one's hp are dropping faster, that's usually a good place to look first.

Anywho, as you stated as well, I'm done with this particular argument. It's obvious you didn't "mean" what you stated when making the original statement that Februs and myself are poking at. There's really no point in continuing to poke at it. Even you admit it's not what you would do. But your original statement was stating "it's easy to keep aggro". Aggro is to be held until a mob is dead. Not for the 1st 5 moves and then it's free game to do w/e. Managing the mobs well is more effective than the spamming flash method. I don't think I've seen a single tank do the below, nor do I believe I would ever find one that would say, "yea, that's a good enmity rotation". You'd maybe get a, "uh, ya. I guess that'd hold. Odd, but it'd work."

Moderation: Yes, I said Strike and Flash five times, exaggeration aside, are serious!? You really think I implied do that indefinitely? It is as simple as that. There is a point to stop. I feel like I am talking to a stupid person having to NEED to say in moderation, but apparently I put too much faith in some of those reading this.