Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Ultimatecalibur]

This is purely anecdotal, but in my experience, ever since I fell out of raiding, there has been no pressure to keep my gear ahead of the curve. The predictability of progression reduces my motivation for getting upgrades in the first place, knowing that a superior version can be obtained for less effort in a future patch. This essentially put me in a backslide to the lower end of the gear spectrum where I benefit more from the numerous catch up options that are available.

Once I unlock the current tier of EX dungeons (I know, I'm pretty far behind), I'd have 4 sources to easily upgrade my 3.0 gear, with a very straightforward, intuitive sense of progression: new dungeon drops (185), Alex NM (190), Eso's (200), and Void ark (200-210). This is in pretty stark contrast to players that have kept up with the curve, who have played out Alex NM for 190 drops and geared out in Eso's by the time 3.1 landed. Their gear has already obsolesced the i185 dungeon drops and most of Void Ark. It confuses me that there is a nice, clean ladder of progression, but it's only there every other patch, and it's possible to outgear that progression before it even hits.

3.0 had a similar natural endgame gear progression prior to the introduction of the Eso/Savage gear in 3.05. You start at i145/i148/i150, ran the level 60 dungeons for Valarian (i160) and Law (i170), did hunts to upgrade the Law gear (i180) and then did Ravana/Alex Normal for i190 gear. The introduction of the Eso gear messed things up as the best way to get the tomestones was to rerun the dungeons tuned for characters in gear 40 ilevels less than what you currently had.

I suspect the biggest cause of your confusion is that SE is gearing up 3 distinct player groups using mostly the same content but consume that content at differing rates. They were planning for casual players to be at around i180 at the start of 3.1 and end up around i200 to i210 before 3.2. Midcore players were around i200 when 3.1 started and are intended to hit i210 by the end of the patch. Hardcore players were expected to hit i205 before 3.1 landed and then gain those last 5 ilevels during 3.1.

[Dzian]

I suspect the biggest cause of your confusion is that SE is gearing up 3 distinct player groups using mostly the same content but consume that content at differing rates. They were planning for casual players to be at around i180 at the start of 3.1 and end up around i200 to i210 before 3.2. Midcore players were around i200 when 3.1 started and are intended to hit i210 by the end of the patch. Hardcore players were expected to hit i205 before 3.1 landed and then gain those last 5 ilevels during 3.1.

Am I reading that right? You're basically saying everyone is meant to be at the exact same place at the end of 3.1.
casuals were planned to be 200-210 before 3.2
midcore expected to hit 210 before the end of the patch (3.1)
and hardcore expected to hit 205 before 3.1 and 210 during 3.1.
Which to me means that they planned for everyone to be at 210 before 3.2. that can't be right,

[Hix]

Which to me means that they planned for everyone to be at 210 before 3.2. that can't be right,

It's the same exact cycle they've been using since Coil and CT. 24 man raids have always been casual centric raids that allowed midcores to increase their gear level to help them clear Coil/Alex Savage, while also allowing Casuals to reach the current raid tier level just as it was about to become the prior raid tier level. That way when the new raid tier level comes out, a casual who wants to become hard/midcore can easily transition and avoid the Can't Catch Up problem. In fact this is the same cycle that's been in WoW since Wrath of the Lich King, and was designed specifically to avoid the Can't Catch Up problem that existed in Burning Crusade.

[Dzian]

It's the same exact cycle they've been using since Coil and CT. 24 man raids have always been casual centric raids that allowed midcores to increase their gear level to help them clear Coil/Alex Savage, while also allowing Casuals to reach the current raid tier level just as it was about to become the prior raid tier level. That way when the new raid tier level comes out, a casual who wants to become hard/midcore can easily transition and avoid the Can't Catch Up problem. In fact this is the same cycle that's been in WoW since Wrath of the Lich King, and was designed specifically to avoid the Can't Catch Up problem that existed in Burning Crusade.

that only highlights why players aren't motivated to do more challenging content I think.

[Ibi]

Which to me means that they planned for everyone to be at 210 before 3.2. that can't be right,

Why not?

Even if 3.2 comes in the first week of February (2/2/16), you'd have sufficient Tomes of Esoterics to be in full i200 if you'd done just three expert and trial roulettes per week (since the tomes were unlocked), and have enough mhachi farthings to upgrade all you can to i210 by running Void Ark ten of the twelve weeks.

[Dzian]

Why not?

Even if 3.2 comes in the first week of February (2/2/16), you'd have sufficient Tomes of Esoterics to be in full i200 if you'd done just three expert and trial roulettes per week (since the tomes were unlocked), and have enough mhachi farthings to upgrade all you can to i210 by running Void Ark ten of the twelve weeks.

Think you missed my point. Which was....

If I do all the latest and greatest content including the really challenging stuff (a4s), I'll be going into 3.2 at about i210
If I do none of the content and just ran the occasional expert or something, I'll be going into 3.2 at about i210

Logically I see that as a problem. Where's the incentive to do the content?

[Alahra]

Logically I see that as a problem. Where's the incentive to do the content?

Getting there earlier, enjoying overcoming difficult challenges, creating optimized gearsets, and so on. And indeed, if newer players, returning players, or non-raiders ever decide they want to get into difficult content, it's actually quite important that the game provides for ways to them to catch up to those that were on the cutting edge.

That's the whole purpose of the catch up patches and part of why the game "resets" every so often. The developers want a wide variety of players to be at or close to i210 at the start of 3.2 so that the maximum number of players has the ability to get into the new raid content if they so choose.

[Cynric]

snip

Well the problem with this pacing was already discussed by Square in the last live letter. Thing is you can't go by Ilvl anyway.


If they hadn't introduced Thordan to help players get through A3S the highest weapon level a casual player could get right now would be 200, 210 if they have a lot of time to devote to the game with the relic questline, but that's time dependent. An average player with limited time won't have their relic before 3.2 with the current quest line.

So a player that has done absolutely no endgame whatsoever will be sitting at much less crit/det/speed/etc. than a player who has cleared A4S and farmed gear through savage.

I myself have not stepped foot in savage because it did not seem worth it and I've had limited time this raid tier. I'm sitting with the thordan weapon and fully upgraded everything at ilvl 208. I have one 210 ring as I've never been in savage even once. My weapon is 205 as I've never been in savage even once.

so the difference between zero raiding and going through the trial of raiding through A4S is currently, 5 levels on your weapon or 10 if you didn't even do thordan(0 if you have time to dedicate to relic) and 10 levels on your second ring. Along with the inability to customize your very unimportant secondary stats.

In the past the difference was exactly the same as it is now, however the raids themselves were more fun. Coil 1-13 if you cleared it when it was relevant the only thing you had over a player who did not touch coil was a single ring, and 5 levels on your weapon. However there was one small difference.

Currently players who have completed Alexander normal have full access to the (in my opinion terrible) style of gear that Gordias savage also drops, lacking the ability to dye it.

When we cleared coil, no one else was walking around with the same looking gear we had unless they also cleared coil, now that isn't the case. That's about the only difference between 2.0 and 3.0 I can think of aside from savage just being harder to do.

The current problems with progression seem pretty well known by Square.

1. Alex isn't worth it.
2. Relic questline was made to be similar difficulty due to weapon level of final step, however neither is worth the work.
3.Alex wasn't interesting
4. Normal mode killed the story progression of savage
5. Rewards from raids are too close to rewards from tomes
6. Older content isn't being done and newer content is dead on arrival
7. Jobs aren't fully balanced causing issues with progression of certain combinations(eg.PLD/DRK)
8.Lack of choice between upgrades. Either do the hardest content, or don't progress your character.
9. Lack of customization between our characters. Monk A is exactly the same as Monk B,

There's a lot of issues right now that goes hand in hand with progression

tl;dr : The reason to progress now is the exact same as it was in 2.0. Things just aren't balanced well progression wise to make those incentives as worth it.