Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Iagainsti]

It was more due to the fact the power of an item in FFXI was not linked to a level of an item it could have over powered stats. For example Peacock Charm a neck piece which gave 10 accuracy and 10 ranged accuracy and it was a lv33 item. FFXI had no rules that linked the power of an item to its level so you would get odd low level items that had a high level of power that couldn't be beat even by level cap gear.

Amazing for THF/NIN/RNG Weapon skills until lvl 75, when the Aurora Boots beat them out with +5 stats.

[Hayward]

Amazing for THF/NIN/RNG Weapon skills until lvl 75, when the Aurora Boots beat them out with +5 stats.

I'll thank Yoshi & Co. that I never need to keep equipment that long based on minimal stats for 2 or 3 abilities.

[Zumi]

Amazing for THF/NIN/RNG Weapon skills until lvl 75, when the Aurora Boots beat them out with +5 stats.

Back in the day they did offer you an upgrade for WS gear for thf and other dd jobs in Sky.



Gear from Rhapsodies zone, the game has come so far since then. When you get level 99 you should have way better gear then level 7 boots. SE did do this eventually. Most of the end game gear now has so many stats on it, that it becomes overly complex, do people want stats like this from the current FFXI expansion in FFXIV?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

The only way something is objectively better than something else is by an arbitrary number. .

The core of your issue is that you have some fantasy that even if they implement job changing stats, such as increased Jump or increased DoT damage, the number crunchers will still objectively figure out what set will best enhance that "Arbitrary number" and anyone without that set will be given the collective boot from any worthwhile content. While I would love to have more varied stats, I'm not kidding myself when I recognize that no matter what, people will choose whatever gives them the biggest "arbitrary numbers" because the only thing that's ever mattered in any game ever, is, "Do we have enough arbitrary numbers to down this content".

[Ibi]

While I would love to have more varied stats, I'm not kidding myself when I recognize that no matter what, people will choose whatever gives them the biggest "arbitrary numbers" because the only thing that's ever mattered in any game ever, is, "Do we have enough arbitrary numbers to down this content".

I think there's one particular exception for this, and that's if SE can implement stats that result in certain changes to a job's default rotation.

It's best suited to something like a set bonus (though even better suited to something like talent selections, but SE have ruled those out), but if SE can implement something that simplifies a job's rotation in a non-negligible way, it has the potential to entice people to use it, even if it results in some reduction to their output (especially when learning new content, when people want to be able to focus more on mechanics and less on perfect execution of their rotation).

As it is, almost every job is going to be using almost the exact same DPS rotation on every single fight from when they first finish their level 60 job quest until SE adds new skills/traits somewhere down the line. With most of the rotations being fairly static, the most interesting thing about them becomes knowing when to hold cooldowns to make the best use of them on a particular encounter. It's nice for consistency, but that's about all you can say about it.

[Vaer]

Won't change unless they stop balancing everything around the raid.

XI didn't have to worry much about it since for most content it was either open world or for most instanced content you could bring a lot of people. That meant you could have a bunch of people in reserve parties or other alliances that could replace or support people in the main alliance.

In XIV, you bring 8 people and they all need to pull their weight to clear harder content early. So this ends up with people shunning certain jobs if the balance is off. There are limited spots in the party so they end up competing for the same couple of slots.

The best we could probably hope for are set bonuses that are only useful for the tier they are in but will get replaced with the next tier.

[Velhart]

snip

Yep. Which goes back to what we constantly say to people is that if we change the system to horizontal and ways FFXI did it, it is basically completely tearing down the current foundation and rebuilding it. Basically a second revamp of this game. Developers are not going to change the formula on such a massive scale. Need to bring in ideas that help improve upon the current systems already in place. Ideas that work in the context of FFXIV. Not just say it will work because a completely different game did it. It is simply unrealistic.

Best point I have heard is that new players would have a lot more difficult time catching up, which the developers are not in favor of.

[Ultimatecalibur]

This is purely anecdotal, but in my experience, ever since I fell out of raiding, there has been no pressure to keep my gear ahead of the curve. The predictability of progression reduces my motivation for getting upgrades in the first place, knowing that a superior version can be obtained for less effort in a future patch. This essentially put me in a backslide to the lower end of the gear spectrum where I benefit more from the numerous catch up options that are available.

Once I unlock the current tier of EX dungeons (I know, I'm pretty far behind), I'd have 4 sources to easily upgrade my 3.0 gear, with a very straightforward, intuitive sense of progression: new dungeon drops (185), Alex NM (190), Eso's (200), and Void ark (200-210). This is in pretty stark contrast to players that have kept up with the curve, who have played out Alex NM for 190 drops and geared out in Eso's by the time 3.1 landed. Their gear has already obsolesced the i185 dungeon drops and most of Void Ark. It confuses me that there is a nice, clean ladder of progression, but it's only there every other patch, and it's possible to outgear that progression before it even hits.

3.0 had a similar natural endgame gear progression prior to the introduction of the Eso/Savage gear in 3.05. You start at i145/i148/i150, ran the level 60 dungeons for Valarian (i160) and Law (i170), did hunts to upgrade the Law gear (i180) and then did Ravana/Alex Normal for i190 gear. The introduction of the Eso gear messed things up as the best way to get the tomestones was to rerun the dungeons tuned for characters in gear 40 ilevels less than what you currently had.

I suspect the biggest cause of your confusion is that SE is gearing up 3 distinct player groups using mostly the same content but consume that content at differing rates. They were planning for casual players to be at around i180 at the start of 3.1 and end up around i200 to i210 before 3.2. Midcore players were around i200 when 3.1 started and are intended to hit i210 by the end of the patch. Hardcore players were expected to hit i205 before 3.1 landed and then gain those last 5 ilevels during 3.1.

[Dzian]

I suspect the biggest cause of your confusion is that SE is gearing up 3 distinct player groups using mostly the same content but consume that content at differing rates. They were planning for casual players to be at around i180 at the start of 3.1 and end up around i200 to i210 before 3.2. Midcore players were around i200 when 3.1 started and are intended to hit i210 by the end of the patch. Hardcore players were expected to hit i205 before 3.1 landed and then gain those last 5 ilevels during 3.1.

Am I reading that right? You're basically saying everyone is meant to be at the exact same place at the end of 3.1.
casuals were planned to be 200-210 before 3.2
midcore expected to hit 210 before the end of the patch (3.1)
and hardcore expected to hit 205 before 3.1 and 210 during 3.1.
Which to me means that they planned for everyone to be at 210 before 3.2. that can't be right,

[Hix]

Which to me means that they planned for everyone to be at 210 before 3.2. that can't be right,

It's the same exact cycle they've been using since Coil and CT. 24 man raids have always been casual centric raids that allowed midcores to increase their gear level to help them clear Coil/Alex Savage, while also allowing Casuals to reach the current raid tier level just as it was about to become the prior raid tier level. That way when the new raid tier level comes out, a casual who wants to become hard/midcore can easily transition and avoid the Can't Catch Up problem. In fact this is the same cycle that's been in WoW since Wrath of the Lich King, and was designed specifically to avoid the Can't Catch Up problem that existed in Burning Crusade.