Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Dyvid]

Snip

This is basically what I mean when I make the statement that gear doesn't matter. Vertical progress is suppose to have a heavy impact on gear and actually needing gear to complete the latest and greatest yet in FFXIV it doesn't. Look at 3.1 and Void Ark. The minimum ilvl is 175 yet most people already had i190-i200 already. That begs the question as to why we should really spend weeks and months grinding to get armor that won't even been needed until the end of 3.XX life cycle? Even look at 2.5 and the required ilvl for WoD was i90 but the reality was everyone was 110-120. The reality is the game is too easy and people are getting bored with it because reward vs challenge just isn't on par.

Bottom line is gear needs weight and SE needs to give us a reason to gear up.

[Xellos2099]

This is basically what I mean when I make the statement that gear doesn't matter. Vertical progress is suppose to have a heavy impact on gear and actually needing gear to complete the latest and greatest yet in FFXIV it doesn't. Look at 3.1 and Void Ark. The minimum ilvl is 175 yet most people already had i190-i200 already. That begs the question as to why we should really spend weeks and months grinding to get armor that won't even been needed until the end of 3.XX life cycle? Even look at 2.5 and the required ilvl for WoD was i90 but the reality was everyone was 110-120. The reality is the game is too easy and people are getting bored with it because reward vs challenge just isn't on par.


Bottom line is gear needs weight and SE needs to give us a reason to gear up.

It would be hindsight 20/20. Peopel would then complain they need to farm gears to get gears

[Xellos2099]

I have seen enough gears set swapping to know it is a bane of this galaxy. Do you remember the time where no one will invite you to exp pt unless you have so and so gear? I do.

[AeraLure]

The problem for me is the overall design. Dungeons offer nothing of interest in terms of rewards. You're just there to collect tomes. It's pretty boring and repetitive and the tome gear itself isn't even varied, but it's all there is in game to get once you're done MSQs. The new dungeons that come out are already outdated when they do, and the tome collecting quickly feels like a chore rather than something fun to do (not a lot of fun to cheer having gotten 30 more of some intangible thing when you need hundreds per week and then months of doing it).

Mind you that's the design and its effect on gameplay I'm criticizing. I'd like to see horizontal progression, better vertical progression planning, better reasons to replay older content, more complicated and interesting stats. Lots of things. I almost quit and unsubbed for a while - what brings me back is not the gameplay as much as my friends and FC. They're the ones that make the game actually the most fun for me.

[Preypacer]

what brings me back is not the gameplay as much as my friends and FC. They're the ones that make the game actually the most fun for me.

I'm finding that to be a very, very common sentiment among people playing this... and that's not a good thing. I'm in that same boat, as are several of my friends.

SE seems to be in a creative rut and can't think of ways to make XIV more interesting. Or, maybe they've designed them self into some corners they don't know how to get out of (see: Housing as one example of this). Whatever the case, they're clinging to the same few systems that are repeated patch after patch after patch. It wouldn't be so bad if there was at least more variety within these systems, but there isn't. It's to the point of being predictable, or at least completely unsurprising, what future updates will bring.

And what happened to them listening to the players, something they vowed to do back when they were trying to get our trust back? I guess that doesn't matter to them anymore, because they seem to not only be listening less and less, but saying "No" more and more, whether directly, or through their actions.

Examples?

Well, there's been many, many posts and discussions - here, and elsewhere, on forums, blogs, vlogs, etc - of people asking and openly "hoping" that SE would do something more interesting for the new Relic weapons. People saying "please don't just throw another long, boring grind at us. Give us interesting storylines, epic, unique fights, a fun quest chain, even if it's really difficult". What does SE do? Gives us another grind, echoing the original Relic process.

I recall people saying they were tired of the tomestone grind a few iterations ago now. It's been brought up many times that repeating the same tomestone process over and over again was getting old and boring. It's been requested many times to please introduce something new, do away with the tomestones, find a new, more interesting system. SE's response? Well, a new tomestone is reportedly being introduced in 3.2.

The community has fallen a long way from where it was, as well.

I remember when 2.0 first launched, this community was rabid in their support and defense of the game, to the point of being outright hostile toward any dissenting opinion. If you even so much as accidentally typed FFXI as a typo, forgetting the V - nevermind deliberately referencing it in some way - you were ripped to shreds. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was around and remembers this. Now? People openly make comparisons to and draw suggestions from FFXI, and not only are they not ripped to shreds, but more people are beginning to agree with them - if for no other reason than to get some new, fresh ideas into this game.

People are beginning to see how saying FFXI did a lot of things right, if not better than FFXIV, is not hyperbole, it isn't heretical, and it's not "rose-colored glasses". It's becoming more commonplace to see people making such statements. Horizontal progression is a major one that's often referenced, but not at all the only thing.

It's an increasingly common opinion that 3.0 has been a rehash of 2.0.

People ask for more character customization, Yoshi-P says "nope".

The only things they seem to readily say "yes" to is stuff like new minions, mounts or new items in the cash shop.

In every other way, it seems to me, SE is slowly slipping back into the "we know what's best for the players, we don't need their input" arrogance that got them in trouble with 1.0.

So, between the change in the community around this game, and the change I'm seeing in SE toward it... things really don't seem to be moving in a positive direction for this game anymore. They built up a lot of goodwill with the turn-around of 2.0, but it seems they're beginning to burn through it, and it won't last forever.

[Belhi]

I remember when 2.0 first launched, this community was rabid in their support and defense of the game. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers this. If you even so much as accidentally typed FFXI as a typo, forgetting the V - nevermind deliberately referencing it in some way - you were ripped to shreds. Now? People openly make comparisons to and draw suggestions from FFXI, and not only are they not ripped to shreds, but more people are beginning to agree with them.

All games go through a Honeymoon period. Almost every game I have played had it. For the first month or two when Wildstar launched people were talking about it being the best game ever. Clearly since the game almost tanked that wasn't the case.

I might add that personally I actually find the comparisons to FF11 rather annoying but find it rude to rip into people regardless of the reason. Further more you might have noted the term 'White Knight' cropping up plenty indicating that there are those who disagree with some peoples complaints or at least the extent of them.

FF14 isn't FF11 2.0. Its not going to be FF11 2.0. Wether that is a good or bad thing is beside the point. They aren't going to reinvent the wheel at this point. That's just an unrealistic quantity of work. Sure they could allow more than they have now but its not going to be a massive overhaul regardless.

People are beginning to see how saying FFXI did a lot of things right, if not better than FFXIV, is not hyperbole, and it's not "rose-colored glasses". It's becoming more commonplace to see people making such statements. Horizontal progression is a major one that's often referenced, but not at all the only thing.

I can almost guarantee that if they made the game more like FF11 the forums would be full of a different set of people complaining. Not everyone likes the same thing. There isn't such a thing as a universally popular choice in almost all work.

Personally I find most horizontal progression models become annoying and problematic. I don't want to spend a lot of time tweaking builds to try and find something that works. I hate having to look up guides to figure out how to make a good character, particularly if they are third party. If there is a bad option then I'm of the view that option shouldn't exist other wise its just annoying. I want to play the game, not screw around with a calculator trying to figure out optimal builds. I hate having to have multiple gear sets for different situations and I hate having to get out a calculator to figure out if a new piece of gear with a special stat is better than what I already have.

It's an increasingly common opinion that 3.0 has been a rehash of 2.0.

People ask for more character customization, Yoshi-P says "nope".

The only things they seem to readily say "yes" to is stuff like new minions, mounts or other such things.

It seems, to me, that SE is slowly slipping back into the "we know what's best for the players" arrogance that got them in trouble with 1.0.

So, between the change in the community around this game, and the change I'm seeing in SE toward it... things really don't seem to be moving in a positive direction for this game anymore. They built up a lot of goodwill with the turn-around of 2.0, but it seems they're beginning to burn through it, and it won't last forever.

There is a 'what's best for players' trap that developers can fall into when designing games and that is a serious issue.

There is also a 'we understand what is feasible in building a game' trap that players can fall into when it comes to their expectations of what devs can and will do.

There is also a habit of people assuming that the majority shares their view. Without accurate metrics this is often a flawed assumption.

More over Yoshi P isn't simply saying nope. He by allowing people to play a large number of different Jobs they allow a variety of play styles through that and rather than try and build different versions of the same job it would make more sense to him to spend the resources on building an entirely new Job that felt different again and so felt like a real alternative.

Now I'm not completely against Horizontal progression but from what I have heard of FF11, I don't think I want to see FF14 end up like that.

[Preypacer]

All games go through a Honeymoon period. Almost every game I have played had it. For the first month or two when Wildstar launched people were talking about it being the best game ever. Clearly since the game almost tanked that wasn't the case.

I'm not talking about a honeymoon period, though. I'm talking about specific complaints from people about specific content that they find to be repeated over and over, patch after patch, without variation (beyond what it's called), even straight into 3.0. That's not "honeymoon" period. That's people saying "Okay, we've had 1-2 years of this now, and it's becoming tiresome. Can you give us something new and different next?"

FF14 isn't FF11 2.0. Its not going to be FF11 2.0. Wether that is a good or bad thing is beside the point. They aren't going to reinvent the wheel at this point. That's just an unrealistic quantity of work. Sure they could allow more than they have now but its not going to be a massive overhaul regardless.

Err... I'm not asking for FF11 2.0. Neither is anyone else, from what I've seen.

People have given specific examples of systems that FFXI had, which were fun, varied and interesting, and provided additional ways to obtain gear, aside from other means which already existed. We're saying "Hey, here's some interesting ideas they implemented in this other game, and people tended to enjoy them. Maybe you can adapt something like that to FFXIV as well, and give us more options, and ways to obtain equipment".

The desired result here is "More Variety".

AnimaAnimus summarizes it nicely in the first sentence of this post.

There's a vast difference between that, and simply wanting FF11 2.0. Please don't conflate the two.

Personally I find most horizontal progression models become annoying and problematic. I don't want to spend a lot of time tweaking builds to try and find something that works. I hate having to look up guides to figure out how to make a good character, particularly if they are third party. If there is a bad option then I'm of the view that option shouldn't exist other wise its just annoying. I want to play the game, not screw around with a calculator trying to figure out optimal builds. I hate having to have multiple gear sets for different situations and I hate having to get out a calculator to figure out if a new piece of gear with a special stat is better than what I already have.

Nothing of what you just said is necessarily tied into horizontal progression. What you're describing is more Min-Maxing behavior, and that exists in any MMO where numbers are in play.

Put another way, people pull out calculators and fuss over every last digit, or the specific order of their rotations, etc, in this game. They use parsers to gauge how well they're doing, or where they have to improve to hit their absolute best numbers.... and this game most certainly doesn't have horizontal progression.

You don't have to min-max in a MMO with horizontal progression, either. I never did, in XI or any other MMO I've played. It's a choice of play style.

There is a 'what's best for players' trap that developers can fall into when designing games and that is a serious issue.

Agreed, and SE seems to be falling into that trap (again).

There is also a 'we understand what is feasible in building a game' trap that players can fall into when it comes to their expectations of what devs can and will do.

I certainly hope what we've seen from SE with this game does not represent the extent, or even close, of what they're capable of thinking up or implementing. If so, then, well... my concerns are even more valid.

There is also a habit of people assuming that the majority shares their view. Without accurate metrics this is often a flawed assumption.

No more flawed than assuming the majority doesn't share their views. Further, at no point have I ever claimed to speak for a majority here.

The point is, there's a large number of people in the FFXIV community who have been voicing the same concerns, in myriad places and formats. The concerns are there. And that's just the ones openly speaking about it. I've seen plenty of people saying similar things in FC and Party chat, or even in the chat of other games I play. They're not here on the forums saying it, but they still feel that way.

More over Yoshi P isn't simply saying nope. He by allowing people to play a large number of different Jobs they allow a variety of play styles through that and rather than try and build different versions of the same job it would make more sense to him to spend the resources on building an entirely new Job that felt different again and so felt like a real alternative.

Are you presuming to speak for Yoshida? I'm not sure you're qualified to do that.

And, he has absolutely said "nope", to a number of things, in Q&As, in Live Letters, in interviews, etc. Reasons he's given have ranged from "he's afraid it would stress out the players" to "it's not how he envisions people playing the game", and various other rather weak (IMO) explanations. Regardless of his explanation, the answer still amounts to "Nope".

Now I'm not completely against Horizontal progression but from what I have heard of FF11, I don't think I want to see FF14 end up like that.

Well, again, per your explanation above, you seem to be conflating "min-maxing" with "horizontal progression", and the two are not at all the same, nor are they even mutually exclusive. Min-maxing exists in any MMO, regardless of what progression model it uses.


And from your other response to me...

Gah!

That sounds even worse. That's one of the reasons I left GW2. I want to play the game content, not screw around with builds.

Yes, when you cherry-pick that bit by itself, and quote it out of context, it would sound pretty bad.

If you're going to quote me and then respond, please have the courtesy of quoting everything, and not just the bit you want to pick apart. Thank you.

[Elim]

Yeah... gear progression in this game is messed up. IMO.

If gear had bonus'/set bonus', less gear would be obsolete when higher Ilvs are introduced. Not to mention gearing would be less bland. Every item could have it's own bonus(a piece could increase movement speed, for example), and if you wear three pieces from x set you'd receive another bonus(another example: increasing movement speed even more...). There could even be a full set bonus further making collecting gear more appealing. People would have to choose between stats, gear bonus' and (full) set bonus'.

I doubt this would ever be implemented, but damn it'd be amazing.

[OranKells]

Horizontal progression would be great if they could pull it off. Unfortunately what tends to happen is someone will crunch the numbers on all the gear and find one piece is objectively better than the rest. If SE would bother to give secondary stats some weight rework a abilities to have dmg modifiers based off secondary main stats and whatnot, we could have something here. or better yet give us gear with some more interesting bonuses. cure+10%, increased thundercloud proc, rage of halone combo +3 & riot blade -2. Something to actually think about?

Destiny has an interesting method with exotic gear. the item level is generally slightly lower than the best raid gear available, but it contains some powerful or unique stat bonuses you won't find any other gear and you're only allowed to equip one exotic item at a time. Something like that could be interesting here

Also It may help if they would slow down with how quickly old content is made obsolete. Maybe instead of throwing echo buffs around so hard we just let old content slowly become easier and easier through the power creep of people getting overgeared for it? At the very least it would keep newer players busy longer and maybe even keep up some of that sense of accomplishment that seems to be stomped on whenever they nerf stuff you worked so hard to beat into the ground.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Horizontal progression isn't exactly good either unless it's implemented a certain way. Even so it can come off more as busy work to keep you away from what you're actually interested in doing, especially if said items/skills are considered mandatory for content.

"Oh. You don't have X item?"
"I don't. But I know what to do-"
"GTFO noob, we don't want your kind here."

Is very much a community killer.