"Changing Tank Damage Calculation"

[Ashelia_Ferron]

"We’ll be bringing tank’s damage calculations up to a more appropriate state, and this includes the issues with enmity. "

The key part is the "including issues with enmity".

Changing damage calculations on what a tank RECEIVES would not simultaneously change anything about enmity

[Jpec07]

"We’ll be bringing tank’s damage calculations up to a more appropriate state, and this includes the issues with enmity. "

The key part is the "including issues with enmity".

Changing damage calculations on what a tank RECEIVES would not simultaneously change anything about enmity

Wouldn't this suggest, though, that they're going to be re-evaluating the potency of attacks and their enmity modifiers? I'm just not sure I buy the whole Vit-to-ATK that I've seen so many people subscribing to. And so many of them act as though it is fact.

[Ashelia_Ferron]

Well they did say "but I believe those of you who are tanks and raiding at the moment can roughly imagine what we will be doing. "

Plus considering the context of the whole "tanks using pentamelds" thing to increase their DPS as well as addressing the fact that Fending is basically undesirable, I don't see how "more defense" would help.

The best mitigation in this game is to kill the enemy faster

[Ashelia_Ferron]

Also consider this: if the changes are indeed reduction to damage taken, then here are a few things that could happen:

1. The reduction is not significant enough to make a difference so people will still run full slaying to kill things faster.

2. The reduction is so much that tanks receive overheals.

3. The reduction is great enough to make tanks not utilize tank stance at all, since the community will still push for more total damage

4. The community just won't care because doing More damage > taking less damage

[Iagainsti]

4. The community just won't care because doing More damage > taking less damage

[Februs]

The best mitigation in this game is to kill the enemy faster

I really wish people would stop saying this, because it's not true. The best mitigation in this game is actually mitigating damage. Plain and simple.

The only time killing things faster is the "best mitigation" is if you so dramatically out-gear the Raid/Trial that you are skipping phases left right and centre, which would mean the content is old. Otherwise, High Dps does not improve mitigation at all. Tank busters are still going to hit you. Raid AoE's are still going to go off. The dmg of those Tank busters and AoE's are not effected by the Boss's remaining HP in most cases. So, in current content, High Dps does jack all for mitigation. The only thing high Dps "mitigates" is wipes due to one-shot mechanics, which isn't really a mitigation because it's an all or nothing thing (with very rare exceptions llike Sacred Cross).

The best mitigation is done by using CD's effectively and following Raid Mechanics, not by hitting the boss a little harder and hoping he doesn't hit you back.

[Ashelia_Ferron]

snip

Content doesn't have to be old to skip phases.
Taking Thordan for example. He will automatically go into the "Leave arena and summon knights" phase if you push him to 70%.
You already mentioned Sacred Cross.
Killing the two knights faster prevents
1. More Holy Bladedances
2. Removes the "Sword Oath" buff, and eliminates the need to heal one of the tanks
3. Stops further double Holiest of Holies, resulting in easier time for healers.

And doing more damage allows you to burn him before some of the later phases as well.

And I guess it's "old", but A1S is still fairly relevant for the time being, and you can skip jumps with enough damage.


And it doesn't just apply to raids and trials. Even dungeons. The faster you can kill mobs, the less damage the tank takes because you're getting rid of enemies faster so you don't HAVE to burn through so many cooldowns/make the healer work.

The shorter the battle, the less damage you take as a whole.

I'm not discounting the fact that cooldowns, shields, prep, etc, is important, but killing things faster is a huge part to why the tank meta is to just have "enough" HP and then boost DPS to the max.

Though I agree that saying it's the "best" mitigation is a bit off, so i'll concede there. Still, there just isn't any reliable way to increase mitigation outside of cooldowns or healer prep other than killing stuff faster, since VIT accessories are, for the time being, not all that useful

[Merkava]

I really wish people would stop saying this, because it's not true. The best mitigation in this game is actually mitigating damage. Plain and simple.

Except you're talking as if proper mitigation and good damage are mutually exclusive actions. A good tank uses cooldowns properly and delivers good damage, the best mitigation is killing whatever is killing you as fast as humanly possible but that does not mean you're not going to be using cooldowns effectively. Enormous pulls in dungeons only get dangerous if said mobs take too long to die, to the point where the healer runs out of MP and/or you run out of CDs to use against the mob onslaught, one of the key reasons why doing humongous pulls as a PLD just isn't worth it with their non-existent AOE damage.

Thordan is also an excellent example of this, Good DPS means you can skip phases and you can reduce the overall damage the tank is taking. You can skip the tank buster in Phase 1 with good damage and imagine if DPS was so slow during the Knight Adds phase that they managed to Holy Bladedance 4+ times (exaggeration, DPS has to be horrible), no amount of CDs would make up for the onslaught of damage tanks would be suffering. Killing them during the first (or second) Divine Right drastically cuts on tank damage. The final phase before enrage is also healing intense to the point that it's MUCH better to just skip it and tanks contribute significantly to the raid damage.

The same stays true to every trial out there. The faster the damage source dies, the better. So even if tanks are adjusted or whatever, people will continue to stack as much damage as humanly possible (without getting killed as tanks).

This is the main reason why PLDs are, currently, considered the lesser tank.

[Februs]

Content doesn't have to be old to skip phases.

Except you're talking as if proper mitigation and good damage are mutually exclusive actions.

I didn't mean to imply that high Dps doesn't help. It does. Of that, there is no doubt, and you're definitely right that high dmg and mitigation are not totally exclusive.

As both of you pointed out, killing things quickly in dungeons prevent the need for Tanks and Healers from spending too much Mp or blowing extra def CD's, and burning Trial/Raid Hp bars quickly allows you to push phases, preventing additional dmg from repeated attacks as well ... but neither of these things are mitigation. They're prevention.

It's a bit nit-picky, but mitigation is actually taking the hit and mitigating it. Not taking the hit at all means that you're not mitigating anything. Further, in regards to Trials and Raids, specifically, High Dps might allow you to push phases faster, thereby skipping extra Tank busters, but pushing phases does nothing to help you mitigate the dmg you are actually taking. Skipping an extra Blade Dance is nice, but you still had to mitigate everything that came before. High Dps output does not change that you were using Def CD's. It just stops you from using more of them. Though, pushing phases in current fights is kind of a bad example, because there are long recovery periods after each skip-able tank buster that make extra CD burns irrelevant, and certain hits (like the 3rd H Blade Dance) are actually a mini-Dps check. If your team doesn't prevent it, you are highly unlikely to clear meteors.

Regarldess, you are both right. High dps is most certainly a big help in any fight. It does a wonderful job of preventing additional and unnecessary dmg, and thereby is essential for preventing unnecessary mitigation. However, actually mitigating hits is purely in the domain of Tanking/Healing. No amount of Dps will reduce the actual dmg you take from a hit. It might prevent additional hits, but it does not reduce the impact of the hits you actually take (except in extremely rare cases like Sacred Cross). This is why high Dps is not the "best mitigation." It's just extremely efficient.