Strength Tanks

[Kenji1134]

So, any new info on the "changing tank damage calculations" thing yet?

[bounddreamer]

So, any new info on the "changing tank damage calculations" thing yet?

Nope. *chinhands*

[Enesuia]

I'm form excalibur, lol I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength. Apparently I am a bad tank for being a vit pally... For just a 5% dmg output with Str set.... and reset. So redundantly lame. Tired of meeting these so call "Tanks" tell me how to be bad. I agree with this post. Lately I've been meeting bad tanks and enough is enough. Some of these bad tanks are usually STR build and even some Vit Build.

Also I pull with Voke then shield lob or Scorns in, people have been attacking me with this for pulling voke and being told that Voke has no threat points at all, even when it general it puts you on-top, and keeps you on-top once you execute your strongest skill ability.

[fm_fenrir]

Also I pull with Voke then shield lob or Scorns in, people have been attacking me with this for pulling voke and being told that Voke has no threat points at all, even when it general it puts you on-top, and keeps you on-top once you execute your strongest skill ability.

Without someone else to produce threat, provoke is worth exactly 1 point of threat. It does $highest_threat+1, so if it's zero to start with, you get 1 whole point. It's literally nothing and a single tick of regen will overpower it instantly. That's why people are telling you to stop doing that.
Fun fact about provoke: It counts as an attack on the bombs in Pharos HM, so you can pop them from a longer distance. Neat party trick, not very useful otherwise.

Also, VIT doesn't make you any harder to kill unless your healer is straight up napping. In those cases, you'll still die, it just takes an extra attack. STR is critical for PLD for a number of reasons, but at the minimum consider that Clemency scales off AP, not VIT/HP. Hitting an 8k crit heal as a tank rules.

[Enesuia]

Without someone else to produce threat, provoke is worth exactly 1 point of threat. It does $highest_threat+1, so if it's zero to start with, you get 1 whole point. It's literally nothing and a single tick of regen will overpower it instantly. That's why people are telling you to stop doing that.
Fun fact about provoke: It counts as an attack on the bombs in Pharos HM, so you can pop them from a longer distance. Neat party trick, not very useful otherwise.

Also, VIT doesn't make you any harder to kill unless your healer is straight up napping. In those cases, you'll still die, it just takes an extra attack. STR is critical for PLD for a number of reasons, but at the minimum consider that Clemency scales off AP, not VIT/HP. Hitting an 8k crit heal as a tank rules.

Though, I don't lose threat with it o.o because I continue to pull threat, and using it before shield lob or any other skill is even better. Never had issues with it lol

[Melian]

I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength.

I wouldn't call anyone bad for choosing to use vitality accessories. If you're pulling well, holding enmity, and mitigating well at the right times with cool downs, you're getting your principle job done. As long as you're getting that done, you're average at the very worst.

In all fairness however, the DPS increase between all str and all vit accessories is substantially more than 5% though. It's hard (and probably a bad idea) to compare different people, even if they're in the same iLV, but eyeballing some paladins in various setups tonight I'd guestimate you can reasonably pull in ~20% more DPS with strength accessories. In DF stuff, it's still not that exciting (+20% of bad is still bad). If you're ever doing something with a tight DPS check though, it becomes relevant.

As for pulling with voke it will generate one enmity rather than none (It doesn't "in general" put you on top, it always puts you equal to highest enmity +1). I don't think there's any great reason to not pull with provoke, apart from the (significant) fact that it means it will be down for the next several seconds in case you actually needed it for something later. If you're sure you won't need to use it, then whatever. It's not hurting anyone. It's not helping you either though, beyond the most superficially technical sense of the word. Pulling with provoke is a lot like casting cover on someone not being attacked. It doesn't hurt anyone, but why? And if you need it later, you'll be out of luck and someone will be hurt by your previous poor judgement.

I'd second what fenrir said about the bombs. It's also useful just in general, if you want to drag someone in from further away. That worker bee down by the three antlions in Mocianne's Arboretum I like to grab in with provoke when he patrols back towards me, rather than make everyone go on a really long run, for example.

Also, VIT doesn't make you any harder to kill unless your healer is straight up napping. In those cases, you'll still die

I disagree. I've found several DF healers who are pseudonapping, rather than straight up, and extra vitality has kept me alive more than once (even though I shouldn't have needed it). Staying alive once on a 4 person DF fight can reasonably save me from having to redo the fight, and by saving me from having to redo the fight (and from having to run back to it!) i'm saving a lot more time than i would have clipped from the run by just slotting str stuff on my pld. I know very little about dark knights, but apparently strength is much more useful to multiple warrior abilities than to mine, so other people's mileage may vary, etc. In the same vein though, while some abilities benefit a lot from Str it's worth not forgetting that others get boosts from vitality. You can recover more HP from various healer cooldowns, get a better stoneskin, give a better divine veil. None of those are amazing perks by any means, but they do exist.

Str Pld or Vit Pld!?! doesn't have to be a black and white issue though. There are certainly several cases where strength is much better (including the aforementioned duty finders, if you know you're going in with half decent people). If you're trying new content though, trying content with super-hard tank hits, or simply don't know what kind of people you'll be stuck with, I think you can make a very compelling argument for using vitality. IMO saying that either str or vit is /always/ better is doing people a disservice, and it's just not true.

[SpookyGhost]

Though, I don't lose threat with it o.o because I continue to pull threat, and using it before shield lob or any other skill is even better. Never had issues with it lol

As long as you're having no issues with it then you can feel free to continue to do it, obviously. However, something to consider is that if there's ever a situation wherein you need Provoke within the first 90s of the fight or that Provoke would actually prove some use, then you can't use it because you've already wasted it. With the way you're currently using Provoke it basically does absolutely nothing - which inherently isn't bad, but depending on the situation it can be. You can keep pulling with Provoke if you truly wish to, but at least recognize that it's not actually doing anything.

Also, pulling with Provoke isn't always necessary bad. If you're trying to pick out a particular mob that's far away (succubi in AK, bees in Neverreap) then Provoke is a fantastic tool. It's just bosses where it doesn't really do anything.

I'm form excalibur, lol I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength. Apparently I am a bad tank for being a vit pally... For just a 5% dmg output with Str set.... and reset. So redundantly lame. Tired of meeting these so call "Tanks" tell me how to be bad. I agree with this post. Lately I've been meeting bad tanks and enough is enough. Some of these bad tanks are usually STR build and even some Vit Build.

Largely depends on what content you're doing. If it's just DF stuff then sure, go VIT, doesn't really matter - VIT PLD is better for trash pulls anyway since PLD really won't contribute any damage when it's just spamming Flash and applying Goring Blade randomly. If it's raid content then you're a part of a group and if being a STR tank helps your group meet certain DPS checks and you aren't compromising your survivability (ie you're popping CDs appropriately and not taking unnecessary damage) then you should go STR. It's not all or none, though, a lot of tanks (especially those who can't afford crafted accessories and are low on gear) will use 3 STR + 2 VIT acessories. Depending on left side pieces, this can put them at a high enough HP value while also increasing their DPS.

But yeah, if it's not raid content then it doesn't really matter. Helps in Thordan EX a bit as well if your group is low on DPS since reaching the last phase can make things incredibly stressful.

[Azzalin]

There come to the point where tanks are slotting in STR to help in the dps checks and healers are melding accuracy to be able to pass DPS checks of certain raids as well.

Personally, I used to go full VIT. Slowly, I switched to STR. Now I'm practically all STR with only my points I get from leveling in VIT still. The only difference I've noticed is that things die faster during AoE pulls and DPS focusing on targets that are not my main no longer get ripped off as fast. Whether or not I live or die still pretty much just depends on the healer as long as I'm using my cool downs correctly.

During raid content, having extra HP is nice to take those big hits, but if you're using cool downs correctly you're fine as long as you have the minimum required. It's more important to be able to kill that run away slime in A3S as a tank than to have enough HP so you can stand around and watch everyone die before you. Just a thought.

tl;dr: Cool downs cool downs, cool downs. Use cool downs. Hallowed Ground, cool downs.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Strength is far more significant then 5%.

[Jamillion]

I'm form excalibur, lol I had a guy name Korivash call me a bad tank for slotting my vitality points in over strength. Apparently I am a bad tank for being a vit pally... For just a 5% dmg output with Str set.... and reset. So redundantly lame. Tired of meeting these so call "Tanks" tell me how to be bad. I agree with this post. Lately I've been meeting bad tanks and enough is enough. Some of these bad tanks are usually STR build and even some Vit Build.

Also I pull with Voke then shield lob or Scorns in, people have been attacking me with this for pulling voke and being told that Voke has no threat points at all, even when it general it puts you on-top, and keeps you on-top once you execute your strongest skill ability.

You spec full Vit and pull with voke? Do you just never run 8 man content? I guarantee I'd end up ripping hate and being MT (since you couldn't voke back) as OT before I even realized what happened.