Strength Tanks

[fm_fenrir]

You'd honestly (@Hayward) be extremely surprised at the low amount of DPS that most DPS players are puling.

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence, but I was putting down double the DPS of my two redbox players as a PLD last night. The healer also complained that I didn't have 20k HP from VIT accessories, so I was "too hard to heal". In his defense, he probably didn't notice I went SwO after the first Halone rotation...

[Ashkendor]

That's so true. My friend recently got a parser and we run a lot of content together and honestly the best phrase to describe it is "what has seen cannot be unseen" because the majority of DPS coming from DPS roles is extremely low and it's mostly been the norm rather than the exception. You'd honestly (@Hayward) be extremely surprised at the low amount of DPS that most DPS players are puling.

I ran into a Ninja last night that did 160 less DPS than my Scholar on Faust.

Seriously, what was he doing? x_x

[Blitzace]

STR or VIT let the player decide, Don't burn away people for using full vit, same goes for full str.
And if i go full STR and i see i deal more DMG (as a PLD no less) than my random DPS in my party, i would say... Yes. it does make a difference.

[Donjo]

I don't have a video but I could probably dig up some parses if I went looking.

It's sad how many DPS can't even DPS.

Hm. I wonder if there's a correlation here.

DPS, as of Heavensward, have all increased in complexity from 50-60. They tend to involve a lot of work in order to achieve maximum output. Following this, it would make sense that "bad DPS" are more common now than they were in ARR.

But what about Tanks? By and large their rotations for maximizing damage are all much simpler than a dedicated DPS, although Dark Knight is certainly the closest to that sort of level.

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

It's pretty morbid if you think about it, isn't it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Whiston]

Hm. I wonder if there's a correlation here.

DPS, as of Heavensward, have all increased in complexity from 50-60. They tend to involve a lot of work in order to achieve maximum output. Following this, it would make sense that "bad DPS" are more common now than they were in ARR.

But what about Tanks? By and large their rotations for maximizing damage are all much simpler than a dedicated DPS, although Dark Knight is certainly the closest to that sort of level.

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

It's pretty morbid if you think about it, isn't it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is very true, and it's a statement I heard when 3.0 was released.
The amazing players will really shine with the expansion of skills, and the previously decent to good players all of a sudden look awfully mediocre.

I think the tank classes are pretty simple to deal high amounts of damage in a lot of the encounters, the trick is simply the correct mitigation at the appropriate times.
I find when I play a DPS class, there is a lot more effort required in order to achieve really good damage.

That being said however, ALL of my DPS classes leveled to 60 will deal more damage than any of my tanks.
Even though the effort is arguably greater for the DPS classes, I don't feel dismal DPS is ever acceptable.

[Hayward]

-snip-

You've hit upon a very important point. I cannot comment completely in the case of MNK and DRG (MNK is at 53 and DRG just hit 60 this weekend with an Iwa-Toshi Kai and a patchwork of Alex and new dungeon gear), but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think and is all the tougher while negotiating mechanics designed to disrupt DPS players' rhythm (let's not mention the occasional leaping off-screen, an utter bane to BLMs in the middle of Enochian or a SMN in the middle of their Aethertrail Attunement).

[VanilleFang]

but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think

Who the crap thinks that would be easy? Rotations are the main reason I refuse to main a DPS class.

[Ashkendor]

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

Those are probably the tanks I hate healing - the ones in Eso gear that mayaswell be using tissue paper.

You've hit upon a very important point. I cannot comment completely in the case of MNK and DRG (MNK is at 53 and DRG just hit 60 this weekend with an Iwa-Toshi Kai and a patchwork of Alex and new dungeon gear), but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think and is all the tougher while negotiating mechanics designed to disrupt DPS players' rhythm (let's not mention the occasional leaping off-screen, an utter bane to BLMs in the middle of Enochian or a SMN in the middle of their Aethertrail Attunement).

Monk didn't seem to have changed much as compared to some of the others, but I could just be doing it wrong.

I was completely turned off to BLM because of the new rotation, though.

[Freyyy]

Monk didn't seem to have changed much as compared to some of the others, but I could just be doing it wrong.

Yeah it didn't change much, NIN didn't change much either. MNK basically just gained means to overcome his weakness when being forced to lose GL3 because of mechanics (Tornado Kick, the ability to stack Chakra and form-shift when there is no target to have a better come-back afterwards). Other than that, he only got 2-3 more oGCDs to weave in his rotation (Forbidden Chakra, Elixir Field, and Shoulder Tackle which was not usable at melee range before). Basically, MNK is now the only job which has always something to do with his GCD even when there is no targets on the field for 10+ seconds.
NIN just got a mean to refresh Huton via a combo, 1 direct damage oGCD, 1 buffing oGCD, and 2 threat-management abilities. The rotation didn't really change, it has even been simplified in terms of Ninjutsu usage and Armor Crush just really takes the place of one Aeolian Edge here and there.
These two jobs didn't get very much more complex at level 60. They just got more tools to keep doing what they were already doing at 50 (and a unique utility for NINs).
However, SMN, DRG, BLM and BRD all got their rotations improved in terms of complexity at some degree. I can understand how players can be struggling when first hitting 60 on these jobs, but now that we're in 3.1 it shouldn't be very hard for them to look at some videos or guides to help them improve.

[Sapphidia]

However, SMN, DRG, BLM and BRD all got their rotations improved in terms of complexity at some degree. I can understand how players can be struggling when first hitting 60 on these jobs, but now that we're in 3.1 it shouldn't be very hard for them to look at some videos or guides to help them improve.

Whilst I definitely agree with you, there's something else to bear in mind here. Those 4 jobs did get added complexity, but they also got big changes in terms of the feel and fun-factor of the class. YMMV of course, but "added complexity" isnt the only thing at work here.

Every class generally has a focus to their rotation. They all have 5-6 regular buttons they press in either a fixed rotation or a priority system, but they all have something else to manage. Monk is about managing the 3 stacks of GL. Ninja is mostly about Huton uptime and regular Ninjutsu use. Dragoon was mostly about weaving lots of OGCD hits in between an otherwise rather fixed rotation, but now suddenly it also has the management of the BotD buff to contend with, which adds the additional frustration of "oh no my buff fell off due to a weird boss mechanic". This frustration is something Monks had to deal with pre-HW, but DRGs largely didn't.

BLMs got a massive change where instead of just watching their mana and reacting to procs, they now have a very very fixed rotation that harshly punishes them if they're even half a second late hitting that Blizzard 4. Bards didn't really get a complexity change but suddenly they're a caster and can't move as much during their rotations.

Any player forced to play one of those classes would easily adapt and learn the new rotation, but the fundamental feel of those classes has changed massively. The additional rotation skills add in layers of focus and frustration that are far beyond what players of those classes experienced in 2.55, whereas Monk/Ninja by and large got skills that REMOVE frustration by helping their buff upkeep.

I can certainly see (and know a lot of people like this) DRG, BRD and BLM players just leaving the classes in droves not because it's too hard but because it no longer feels like the class they loved playing back in 2.55. It may be that the community buzz about how fun tanks are (particularly all the fell cleave memes at the start of HW) has made these previously dps-centered players at least dabble in tanking.