Quick question to all dps people in regards to dps in general

[Februs]

Neither of the points are relative for a tank in tank gear, though. I can do perfect combos, have perfect timing for fell cleaves and 100% uptime, but if I'm not wearing str gear then I just look like a crappy war.

It makes sense if we're comparing War's (vit) vs. War's (str). As you said, a War putting out half the effort of a perfect War can outdo the better player simply by putting on Str accessories. In that regard, they type of gear makes a huge difference. You're also right that when you're comparing War's in Dps gear to actual Dps in Dps gear the dynamic changes, but that is precisely why I pointed out the two factors that stack things in War's favour.

Simply put, to maximize their Dps, War's have to rotate two combos, one DoT, and use a single OGCD. That's a mere 8 move rotation in which the OGCD takes care of itself and does not interrupt combos. On top of that War's typically get 100% uptime on the boss. By comparison, a Drg has 2 complete combos, 2 4th tier finishers that are interrupted by other moves and must be used as soon as possible, one Dot that can interrupt combos, one buff that can interrupt combos, 5 OGCD's that are most often used on CD (except for Geirskogul, which is more complicated at a burn of 1 ever ~90 seconds), and all of these things must be used while keeping a close eye on that BoTD timer to make sure you don't mess it up. That's a 15 move rotation that is constantly being interrupted by boss mechanics, because Dps rarely get 100% uptime on Raid bosses.

Normally, Drg's are complete powerhouses on single target Dps. Evenly matching gear (slaying for slaying) with a War, the comparison should be dramatically in favour of the Drg. However, a War can, and often does, keep up, because those two factors (simple Dps combo and 100% uptime) make a huge difference to the end result. Personally, I think this is a huge mistake on SE's part, and reflects how utterly silly the current end-game meta. SE is responsible for fueling the idea that War's in Vit gear are "crappy wars" by creating a system that allows them to meet Dps standards.

[viewtyjoe]

Simply put, to maximize their Dps, War's have to rotate two combos, one DoT, and use a single OGCD. That's a mere 8 move rotation in which the OGCD takes care of itself and does not interrupt combos. On top of that War's typically get 100% uptime on the boss. By comparison, a Drg has 2 complete combos, 2 4th tier finishers that are interrupted by other moves and must be used as soon as possible, one Dot that can interrupt combos, one buff that can interrupt combos, 5 OGCD's that are most often used on CD (except for Geirskogul, which is more complicated at a burn of 1 ever ~90 seconds), and all of these things must be used while keeping a close eye on that BoTD timer to make sure you don't mess it up. That's a 15 move rotation that is constantly being interrupted by boss mechanics, because Dps rarely get 100% uptime on Raid bosses.

The dragoon rotation is pretty simple, honestly. Geirskogul timing outside of 100% uptime fights and B4B and Internal Release timing is the only real complication I can think of. You alternate between two combos, most of your oGCDs are used on cooldown between attacks, you alternate between longer running GCD buffs/debuffs (Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize) after each combo, and in the ideal situation, you Geirskogul any time you hit the first attack of a combo with 22+ seconds of BotD remaining. Are positional requirements more stringent? Obviously, but compared to DPS rotations in other games I've played, nothing in FFXIV is overly complex.

I tend to just honestly believe that the majority of players are misinformed, haven't sought out information on how to play their class, have decided that it doesn't matter, or don't want to learn to perform well. That's really the only thing that can explain the levels of DPS I've seen in groups.

[Jim_Berry]

*SNIP*

and yes I mean single target dps if say a warrior can do 1.1k and a mnk can do 1.5-1.6k at il 198 like mine or does that mean I'm a weak monk that needs to get good and do at least double a tank class?

I'm a NIN main. Too many people parsed me at different numbers on the same mob while I'm doing the same moves within the same jobs in the party. Something I noted was that other people affects my damage as well.

For example, a group on Faust clocked me at 1.2k. This group had a WAR. Not sure what the reason was, but I found myself needing to keep Dancing Edge up. With that, I wasn't able to use Aoelian Edge much because Shadow Fang was dropping in one tick at the same time that Dancing Edge was wearing off.

What I'm getting at is that us DPS folks are being targeted for low numbers (honestly, I'm not sure how 1.2k is considered low) from different parsers that most of us say screw it and do our own thing.

[Jim_Berry]

It's not progression comtent anymore, at least not for the people that pump out dps-like numbers. It's overgeared farm content. During progression tanks have been wearing melded vit/str, and there's quite a huge difference in str caps between i150 and i210 right side, so the gap between dps and tank damage was also bigger. This will also change in 3.2 with crafted right side only allowing one mainstat meld per piece, so unless SE nerfs the next raid so much that tanks can wear str pieces with only one vit meld from the get go, the difference will be even bigger by then.

...which will make more people post about lack of DPS damage; think about the NIN putting on the DEX main stat meld but people still saying he suck even though he went from 1.2k to 1.5k...

[Jim_Berry]

Well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree I guess lol. I can't consider someone who doesn't have drops from content (or beyond) being overgeared for said content. You don't just go from minimum gearing to over gearing.

*SNIP*

I am iL202 NIN. Do I have drops from Alex Savage? No! I have yet to clear A1. I'm being 100% honest when I say it's not even my fault. We get people who put Resin under lasers, people who catch tunnel vision, and people don't pay attention that adds dropped. When I had access to TeamSpeak, people were so busy laughing and joking in the chat that they were dying and messing up, while the people who WEREN'T in TS where doing everything right.

I remember when I beat T10, I had to give away NIN loot to the NIN person because NIN was his only job while I had to bounce between BRD and WHM. So I think it's wrong to NOT consider someone just because they have no gear from the content.

At the same time, I'll not touch content I have no experience in at all. I never cleared A1S, so I'll never enter A2+ until I beat A1 a few times.

[winsock]

I'm confused as to what the problem is here.

DPS classes are still more valuable than WARs in the dps slots of traditional party comps.

A WAR who maintains high dps doesn't restrict a dps class from maintaining high dps, and doesn't lessen the dps class' obligation to maintain high dps.

Where is the issue?

[Kabooa]

DPS classes outperform the warrior in constant uptime scenarios.

Blame the encounter, not the class.

[Februs]

Are positional requirements more stringent? Obviously, but compared to DPS rotations in other games I've played, nothing in FFXIV is overly complex.

I agree. Even position requirements are not nearly as stringent as they used to be before they were patched (back when proper positioning actually effected your combo, not just the combo bonus dmg). I definitely wouldn't say it's very difficult. Especially if you just take the time to actually learn it.

That being said, I'm wasn't referring to overall difficulty of rotation. I was merely comparing War to a Dps class (drg, since I'm familiar with that one). Between the two of them, War has a much easier time optimizing their Dps, so much so that it actually does similar numbers. Personally, I don't think that's right, and I think it has had some serious consequences to the meta of the game.

Because War's can push Dps values, Dps checks have skyrocketed in HW. This makes sense, because if the Dps Checks were not raised any group rocking 2 Wars would basically be packing 6 Dps and have a ridiculously easy time meeting checks. Dps checks would only be difficult for groups with Pld/Drk (which would essentially have the correct fight makeup of 2 Tanks 4 Dps and 2 Healers). War groups would get a free pass, which means no one would ever play as Pld or Drk. Solution? Easy. Increase the Dps check.

The problem with this is that Dps checks are no longer the single responsibility of Dps. This pretty much eliminates varied play styles among the three tanks. War's are still the preferred Tank, because they make high Dps checks attainable even with bad/lazy Dps. Pld's have essentially been removed from end-game content, because they have the lowest Dps. Even if a Pld is brought along they are not permitted to fully utilize their defense. Moves like Stoneskin and Clemency are now written off as wasted time that could have been used for helping the Dps, when, in theory, they should be actively used during the fight to help the healers. Worse yet, some Dps will under-preform because they know that there are now 5 other players helping the Dps meet the check (7 if the healers are super active). Compared to the way things were before, I don't think this is a "better" way of designing end-game content, but SE has paved themselves into a corner because of the ridiculous kit they have given War's.

[vp_cmc]

What I'm getting at is that us DPS folks are being targeted for low numbers (honestly, I'm not sure how 1.2k is considered low) from different parsers that most of us say screw it and do our own thing.

If you want to checkout what other people are doing differently (faust for example), you may look at: http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...bal&spec=Ninja

You even may go into the details of the specific fight from that table and watch the "replay" and see their rotation. Maybe it will help.

P.S. But probably it is just gear, sometimes I forget, that not everybody is i210.

Where is the issue?

Issue was mainly in 3.0 but it can be now too: "Hey, this bard is doing barely more dps as a tank (war). Should we kick him?"

[Ash_Smokespear]

D: All of the dps in my static push higher numbers than me, and I'm around 1100-1200 with food and pots. It's not even the BEST food and pots, I'm cheap.

What fight are you talking about here?