Quick question to all dps people in regards to dps in general

[lulunami]

I just checked the Elysium A3s week 3 kill. The hp numbers both tanks have are not reachable in full slaying with the gear available at that point, not even close.

Did you account for food, party buff, and tank drops from Alex 2?

[Februs]

Neither of the points are relative for a tank in tank gear, though. I can do perfect combos, have perfect timing for fell cleaves and 100% uptime, but if I'm not wearing str gear then I just look like a crappy war.

It makes sense if we're comparing War's (vit) vs. War's (str). As you said, a War putting out half the effort of a perfect War can outdo the better player simply by putting on Str accessories. In that regard, they type of gear makes a huge difference. You're also right that when you're comparing War's in Dps gear to actual Dps in Dps gear the dynamic changes, but that is precisely why I pointed out the two factors that stack things in War's favour.

Simply put, to maximize their Dps, War's have to rotate two combos, one DoT, and use a single OGCD. That's a mere 8 move rotation in which the OGCD takes care of itself and does not interrupt combos. On top of that War's typically get 100% uptime on the boss. By comparison, a Drg has 2 complete combos, 2 4th tier finishers that are interrupted by other moves and must be used as soon as possible, one Dot that can interrupt combos, one buff that can interrupt combos, 5 OGCD's that are most often used on CD (except for Geirskogul, which is more complicated at a burn of 1 ever ~90 seconds), and all of these things must be used while keeping a close eye on that BoTD timer to make sure you don't mess it up. That's a 15 move rotation that is constantly being interrupted by boss mechanics, because Dps rarely get 100% uptime on Raid bosses.

Normally, Drg's are complete powerhouses on single target Dps. Evenly matching gear (slaying for slaying) with a War, the comparison should be dramatically in favour of the Drg. However, a War can, and often does, keep up, because those two factors (simple Dps combo and 100% uptime) make a huge difference to the end result. Personally, I think this is a huge mistake on SE's part, and reflects how utterly silly the current end-game meta. SE is responsible for fueling the idea that War's in Vit gear are "crappy wars" by creating a system that allows them to meet Dps standards.

[viewtyjoe]

Simply put, to maximize their Dps, War's have to rotate two combos, one DoT, and use a single OGCD. That's a mere 8 move rotation in which the OGCD takes care of itself and does not interrupt combos. On top of that War's typically get 100% uptime on the boss. By comparison, a Drg has 2 complete combos, 2 4th tier finishers that are interrupted by other moves and must be used as soon as possible, one Dot that can interrupt combos, one buff that can interrupt combos, 5 OGCD's that are most often used on CD (except for Geirskogul, which is more complicated at a burn of 1 ever ~90 seconds), and all of these things must be used while keeping a close eye on that BoTD timer to make sure you don't mess it up. That's a 15 move rotation that is constantly being interrupted by boss mechanics, because Dps rarely get 100% uptime on Raid bosses.

The dragoon rotation is pretty simple, honestly. Geirskogul timing outside of 100% uptime fights and B4B and Internal Release timing is the only real complication I can think of. You alternate between two combos, most of your oGCDs are used on cooldown between attacks, you alternate between longer running GCD buffs/debuffs (Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize) after each combo, and in the ideal situation, you Geirskogul any time you hit the first attack of a combo with 22+ seconds of BotD remaining. Are positional requirements more stringent? Obviously, but compared to DPS rotations in other games I've played, nothing in FFXIV is overly complex.

I tend to just honestly believe that the majority of players are misinformed, haven't sought out information on how to play their class, have decided that it doesn't matter, or don't want to learn to perform well. That's really the only thing that can explain the levels of DPS I've seen in groups.

[Nemesis4567]

tanks role is to control all agro mitigate damage dodge aoes and maximize dps.
healer roles dot all mobs heal all and do as much dps as possible they two have to dodge aoes.

all a dps does is dps maximum efficiency and dodge aoes so doing 1.5x a warriors damage doesn't feel enough cause we do far less in general in the dps role.

While I'll agree that DPS has the least responsibility. You left out that maintaining there rotation to maximize dps is a little more complex than a tank, or a healer.

[Valkyrie-Amber]

umm not quite drk and warriors are more complex than the 1-2-3 tank pld.

the issue im stating is a dps only needs to max dps and at on average if good dps you only do about 1.5x the damage of a warrior tank.

warriors also have a lot to do maintaining stacks and all mitigating damage and tanking. but the fact they still can potentially do only say 1/3 dps less than an optimal dps seems to not feel right.

[Februs]

umm not quite drk and warriors are more complex than the 1-2-3 tank pld.

If we're talking about current content, then Pld's are no longer a 1-2-3 Tank. They're still not nearly as complex in usage as War and Drk, but they do have 3 combos and a dps rotation that is not all that different from Wars (just much lower in Dps).

the issue im stating is a dps only needs to max dps and at on average if good dps you only do about 1.5x the damage of a warrior tank. warriors also have a lot to do maintaining stacks and all mitigating damage and tanking. but the fact they still can potentially do only say 1/3 dps less than an optimal dps seems to not feel right.

You should also keep in mind that there are 2 factors to War's that contribute to their high Dps output that most people do not consider.

The first is that War's aren't as complicated as most people make them out to be (at least not from a pure Dps standpoint). I'm not saying they're easy to tank with, but everything is fluid for a War. Their stacks of Wrath/Abandon pretty much take care of themselves, because their combos generate them. Their OGCD moves do not interrupt those combos. Stance dancing does not interrupt their combos. Inner Beast is both a buff, attack, and Hp regen. A large chunk of their mitigation and Dps are applied only by using their combos, and several of their moves allow them to ignore the penalty of their Tank stance even while their tanking. If they want to maximize their combo Dps, they only need to rotate 2 of the 3 (assuming their okay with ignoring mitigation, which I should point out is no different or more complicated than Pld's combos, at the moment). The most difficult part of Dps as a War is actually theory crafting when to swap stances and utilize Fell Cleave (or decimate in a multiple mob tanking situation). Easy stance dancing makes this pretty simple, and if the War is OT, this isn't even an issue.

The second part that people don't consider is that Warriors typically have 100% up-time on the boss when MT'ing. When in the MT position, there are literally no interruptions to their Dps in most boss fights. Real Dps don't always have that luxury. Sometimes they have to follow fight mechanics that take them away from the boss. OT War's also suffer this setback, but unlike the MT war they get a dmg boost from not tanking or worrying about things like buffs. They use a simple 2 combo rotation, Fell Cleave all day, and pop Berserk when it comes up to get additional Dps without the setback of Defiance's dmg penalty.

[Twilite]

umm not quite drk and warriors are more complex than the 1-2-3 tank pld.

the issue im stating is a dps only needs to max dps and at on average if good dps you only do about 1.5x the damage of a warrior tank.

warriors also have a lot to do maintaining stacks and all mitigating damage and tanking. but the fact they still can potentially do only say 1/3 dps less than an optimal dps seems to not feel right.

I don't know about DRK, but WAR is basically 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. Although keep in mind, every WAR plays differently.

[Gamer3427]

Part of the problem I see is that SE built tanks and healers with extra powerful attacks thinking that those players would be using them less often and instead be focusing most of their time on tanking or healing, (I wonder wherever they got that idea?). Because of this tank and healer attacks hit for more power than they really should per attack, (particularly Cleric Stance healers since that actually not only switches your MND to INT, but gives you a DPS boost on top of that), so a full DPSing tank or healer can put out damage numbers comparable to or in some cases surpassing actual DPS numbers while requiring a fraction of the work to get there. Theoretically in normal content this won't end up being the case because they will have to eventually tank or heal to keep the party from wiping, but when they find a work around to that, (have one player solo heal/tank in eight player content meant to require two of that role, usually), they get high numbers fairly easily.....

[Carstien]

I skimmed once I saw the 'double damage' theory about tanks and dps. It's nonsense.

This has never been a thing in ff.

[whiskeybravo]

Well there is that little caveat, if we had to wait 8 months between scob savage and fcob certainly more people would've been attempting it at least. So if groups spent more time optimizing scob savage, at some point I'm sure at least 1 group of the best players would've been able to carry/sell a savage run, would you consider it at that point to be overgeared content? Even tho the gear itself didn't change? That's kinda what I meant by your logic.

I'm not really trying to argue with you about any of this, I just find it interesting that something can be called overgeared farm content when only like 3% of the game's population has actually cleared it lol