Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[Nominous]

you would be fine with it if you got both abilities at 56 instead of one at 56, one at 58?

Obviously not everyone shares the same view, but I think this is what most people are (should be) annoyed at. It's just that it's a wasted skill slot for 58 that doesn't add anything but complexity. This is something that I think is typically dealt with through traits. Here, I can explain exactly why this is a bit inappropriate.


Think about Bloodletter as an example. It's a skill that initially has no depth or complexity, but gains it through a trait. Once it gains the ability to proc, it means you get more damage for actually keeping a close eye on it. Better yet, it's a trait. This is how things should be. You get a skill, and it increases the difficulty, or ceiling at which the job can be played at. At the same time, it also feels (and is) rewarding when used correctly. I don't think I can say the same about Wheeling Thrust. Again, the 4th hit skills do the same thing, and there's not much validation for separating them into separate entities when it's the same system, essentially.

I welcome the injection of variety in DRG. I feel we desperately needed it, and it's unlikely they'd actually go as far as creating a new skill in it's stead. It's worth noting though, that the dissenting views on the skill are more than validated.

[RiceisNice]

Obviously not everyone shares the same view, but I think this is what most people are (should be) annoyed at. It's just that it's a wasted skill slot for 58 that doesn't add anything but complexity. This is something that I think is typically dealt with through traits. Here, I can explain exactly why this is a bit inappropriate.

It's not exclusive to DRG getting this treatment though, nor can you necessarily say that WT (or really any skill) is added only for the sake of complexity because you sorta have to obtain them to progress through the job quests to get your next skills. For example, WM/GB by itself raw is actually a dps loss for their respective jobs until they get the new abilities, and it's only a dps gain because those new abilities are locked behind WM/GB. If we were to take the current design of GB/WM and make it not require those stances, then the design of those abilities become questionable at best in regards to how it's supposed to be utilized.

Whether or not it does a good job at adding said complexity is a different argument all together.

Think about Bloodletter as an example.

Bloodletter when gained is an extra damage skill that's oGCD. I mean it's not really a good comparison if people are trying to make the argument that "WT does absolutely nothing but make the job harder", but that's also applied to abilities like WM (which not only makes the job "harder", but lowers their dps until they get more abilities) or smokescreen/clemency/paeon (which only serves to fill a very specific niche that has almost no use in a practical environment, and more often than not becomes detrimental to the job using it because of the cast times, nor add any layers of complexity/difficulty to said job)

[Nominous]

It's not exclusive to DRG getting this treatment though, nor can you necessarily say that WT (or really any skill) is added only for the sake of complexity because you sorta have to obtain them to progress through the job quests to get your next skills.

It's a great comparison. It's not whether it's an OGCD, or a normal GCD we're comparing. I'm comparing the use of a skill slot for one class, to another. A skill slot that gives you an OGCD, provided it's not horrendously animation locked, will always be a benefit, so I'm not counting that in the comparison. What I am counting, is the fact that we have a system for adding quirks and peculiarities to existing skills without wasting skill slots. It's the trait system. For any skill that has additional functions, or any additional systems, it's almost purely through traits, or it's built into the skill itself at the level it's presented to you.

It's not that Wheeling Thrust adds nothing but complexity that makes it particularly bad, either.

It's multiple variables that come together to make the skill seem more like a wasted slot than a genuinely great use of a 58 skill. Not many people question a skill like Gauss Barrel, or Wanderers. Why? Because they understand it's a piece of a puzzle. It's something they can't fully utilize until everything's said and done. That being said, once they are 'done' they get more benefit from having it. We don't get any more benefit than F&C already gives us. Again, it's not even really about that for me, it's about the fact that they could have either made it a trait, lumped them together, or something, and given us a 58 skill that actually had more use than what Wheeling has.

[RiceisNice]

It's multiple variables that come together to make the skill seem more like a wasted slot than a genuinely great use of a 58 skill. Not many people question a skill like Gauss Barrel, or Wanderers. Why? Because they understand it's a piece of a puzzle. It's something they can't fully utilize until everything's said and done. That being said, once they are 'done' they get more benefit from having it. .

Except, that's still the same as WM/GB. WT is still a "piece of the puzzle" to make the class feel complete at level 60, otherwise you're just going to go back to the flank for every 4th hit. You don''t fully utilize something like BotD, WT or FnC until you get GS from level 60 either, until then it's adding everything one at a time before it feels complete. There's no benefit from using WM/GB when you get it at 52, but only until you get the other abilties does it feel like it's acutally doing something while at the same time, it doesn't detriment your character (which WT does not do, but WM/GB does since it actually lowers your dps).

You also go on about "wasted skill slots" when again, DRG is not the only example of this, if you can even consider something like WT to be a "wasted skill slot" compared to the likes of paeon, clemency or smokescreen. Because it still adds something to the job that actively gets utilized. When you say "great use of a 58 skill", would you consider those 3 a great addition to the jobs? Is the "wasted skill slot" even a big deal considering DRG's current placings (which can be said for other jobs who also have abilties that fill a useless niche)

I don't mean to sound like an arse, but it's really hard to sympathize for a job that's going on about how they have a "wasted" skill slot when other jobs has the same thing, except theirs don't even have a persisting, ongoing purpose and that DRG as of now is arguably one of the best dps jobs to bring.

[Nominous]

When you say "great use of a 58 skill", would you consider those 3 a great addition to the jobs?

So I think you're misunderstanding. Again, it's as simple as the fact that we have traits for additional systems or layers of depth into a single skill. There's no need to use a skill slot for said skills, when extra functions have been, and could have been built in. Let me show you how many skills don't require the use of an actual ability, or skill slot, that all have systems either built in (in one level/ability) as opposed to multiple slots or abilities.

Defiance (Wrath is a built in ability, you don't need to unlock an additional ability to stack it)
Deliverance (Abandon is built in, as well as the ability to transfer Wrath->Abandon and vice versa)
Greased Lightning (Traited- you don't separately unlock extra stacks through quests/actual skill slots)
Opo-Opo/Couerl/Raptor Form (The ability to transition between these stances, and the stances themselves, are built in to skills, there's no need for a separate ability that allows that)
Suiton (Hide effect is automatically built in, no separate ability that needs unlocked to allow you to do so with it)

The list goes on, but you get the idea. None of the above abilities rely on separate skill quests or slots to actually achieve more complexity or depth. It's all done either passively, or through traiting. And that's how it honestly, should stay. It's cohesive and makes the most sense.

And as a matter of fact, I actually consistently tell my raiding members that I feel there need to be changes to clemency because of it's lackluster benefits. And yes, the enmity skills on NIN ARE wasted slots, and I think many NIN would agree it adds very little to the job. You're debating things that have nothing to do with the conversation that I'm having. I'm not talking about, or debating the fact that other jobs don't have weird problems. I never alluded to it, actually. I also never said that other jobs don't have wasted skill slots. I'm specifically only talking about Wheeling Thrust, and how realistically, there's not much reason (other than maybe laziness) for them to not have put more thought into a better way to implement it. And NIN's abilities, and other jobs new abilities. There's flaws everywhere, but WT is what I'm speaking on.

[RiceisNice]

I also never said that other jobs don't have wasted skill slots. I'm specifically only talking about Wheeling Thrust, and how realistically, there's not much reason (other than maybe laziness) for them to not have put more thought into a better way to implement it. And NIN's abilities, and other jobs new abilities. There's flaws everywhere, but WT is what I'm speaking on.

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60? That really doesn't sound like a good reason to bring up a debate to be honest.
They can change it in the future, but that means redoing how the previous skills works without WT (so it effectively changes nothing for DRGs that are already level 60) or adding a new skill that requires the complete rebalancing of the job, or add in another useless skill in it's place (which then brings to DRG having 6 different skills compared to everyone only having 5). You bring up the flaw but also offer no solution that can both be easily implemented and practical at the current state of the game because like I've said before, the job itself still functions really well and performs really well, and all of their skills sitll serve a purpose despite the implementation.

I keep referencing the other jobs because honestly, it's relevant to the fact that it's roughly the same concepet of having a "wasted skill". I didn't say that you don't think the other jobs have useless skills, but on that basis DRGs are not special in this regard that honestly should spur such a long debate to have it changed, nevermind the fact that WT still actually does something anyway. They could have implemented it as a trait, but whats the point if it leads to the same end product unless you really want the extra skill slot.

Realistically, what do you want to be done? Because the only thing I see right now from you is that you're debating on it's implementation for the sake of debating. There could be solutions, but if it effectively leads to the exact, same DRG we have now, then what's the point?

[Nominous]

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60?

That's a weird conclusion to jump to, based on what I've been saying. In any case.



I'd change the wording of BoTD slightly to say something to the effect of... "Additional Effect: Grants Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust when completing a combo with Chaos Thrust or Full Thrust." Instead of sharper, or enhanced, since the skills wouldn't exist separately in a perfect world. Then, this is what the 56 skill would look like:

Lv. 56- Final Thrust
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
290 when executed from the rear while under the effect of Wheeling Thrust.
290 when executed from the flank while under the effect of Fang and Claw.
Can only be executed while under the effect of Blood of the Dragon.

Alternatively, keep everything the same, just consolidate Wheeling Thrust and F&C both into level 56.

As for the 58 skill, anything could have worked. oGCD, quality of life, utility, buff, defensive, anything. WT in it's current iteration is actually nothing more than a palette swap of F&C, that creates a 50/50 for you. No extra potency, no added flexibility or mobility, no effects, or anything else. Even Blizzard IV, and Fire IV, which have the same potency, have different benefits and detriments. By this logic, almost anything that has real viable use, would have been a more worthy 58 skill than WT. And even with all of that...


Like I said in a previous post, if you read... I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job. I also said that I genuinely doubt they'd change it. Even if they did, they'd basically have no other choice but to do the same for other jobs who feel similarly, and that's asking for basically an entire battle system revamp. That being said, I thought I'd shed a reason as to why the thoughts on WT are valid, and why people are rightly annoyed at it. It's worthwhile conversation in my book. After all, while it's still welcomed complexity, it's always good to give devs feedback for future adjustments or expansions.