Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[EnumeratingWishes]

I am late to the thread but just want to share ideas:

"What if" Wheeling thrust also had a chance to refresh Dive cooldown and Fang and claw had a chance to refresh jump cooldown.

or

the combos would activate Fang and Claw 100% and Fang and claw would activate the use of "Wheeling Dive" which would be another ogcd jump move that had a timer on its activation.

keep positionals on the skills and either idea would be adding more jump action which some say and I agree with needs a little more and would take away the boring that currently the skills are practically the same thing.

Why put more rng into the equation? Easiest solution is to give us another jump. It's blasphemy that NONE of the post-50 skills were jumps.

[fm_fenrir]

Why put more rng into the equation? Easiest solution is to give us another jump. It's blasphemy that NONE of the post-50 skills were jumps.

One of the two fourth hit skills is a jumping attack animation, but I can't remember which one. I think it's Wheeling Thrust?

[JackFross]

Why put more rng into the equation? Easiest solution is to give us another jump. It's blasphemy that NONE of the post-50 skills were jumps.

No, thanks. We already have 7 jumping skills to use per every 2 minutes of encounter. What cooldown would you give the new jump? What potency? Where would we even fit it in the opener?

Also...
re: refreshing Jump/SSD cooldowns:
That would boost the dps of the class. We don't need our dps boosted. We're exactly where we should be.

re: new jump move
See: above.

re: SO BORING
No. What's boring is levels 56 and 57. I recently finished leveling my alt's Dragoon. The most awkward stretch of levels was 56-57. Having *only* Fang and Claw feels weird and wrong, like something is missing. Maybe because I've been playing 60 DRG for so long, but eh.


All of the people suggesting changes completely ignore the very important thing called game balance. Each jump skill is a significant portion of your overall DPS. Adding another one would boost us EVEN HIGHER and make the opener even MORE button-mashy than it already is. I'm all for injecting complexity into the job and making it fun to play. Which is why. I say people need to get over 3.0 DRG skills. We get an amazing utility skill to inject much-needed raid utility to the class. And then we get a new mechanic to inject life and fluidity to what was an incredibly rigid class in 2.x. The RNG nature of the fourth hit of the combo *adds* to this fluidity. It's part of the flair and flavor of the class.

My honest opinion is this:

If the RNG nature of FaC and WT is enough to make you so mad you need to complain about it in this thread, why are you still playing my class?

[Jonnycbad]

WM is a dps loss by itself, and was a dps loss throughout until the buff. WM only becomes a damage gain once you get empyreal arrow, which the same can be said for WT/FnC except they're strictly dps gains no matter how you slice it, and becomes more so when gerkisoul. Unfortunately what WM adds to BRD is essentially the same as what WT does for your class, cause they could have not implemented WM, but still give us empyreal arrow and ironjaws and it'd still be a DPS increase. It's only because they have to lock those skills behind WM is only then it becomes a gain (because otherwise it's a dps loss if those skills are not factored or otherwise restricted to WM)

Difference is: EA is gated behind WM. GK is not gated behind WT.

If DRG wasn't The Best DPS by a significant margin, you could make this statement with more sincerity. The random nature of F&C/WT proc is annoying, but it isn't a flat penalty unless you're so dedicated to parking on the rear or flank that you're also throwing away HT/CT potency bonuses.

So poor design gets a handwave because the job is currently the best dps? So if one patch MNK becomes the new flavor of the month DPS, will then it be warranted to evaluate how WT is literally a worthless ability, not even a weak ability, or situational ability (Feint), or annoying to use ability (WM) but a WORTHLESS ability.

The random nature of F&C/WT proc is annoying, but it isn't a flat penalty unless you're so dedicated to parking on the rear or flank that you're also throwing away HT/CT potency bonuses.

100% a flat penalty. At 56 you have a 100% proc, unless you weren't paying attention. It was predictable and easy to plan for. At 58 now it's 50/50. It isn't hard, but there is now a larger margin for error meaning there a few fractions of a second to screw up. This isn't clever game design, it doesn't make DRG hard or more interesting to play, it makes DRG a chore. DRG may be the best DPS right now, but there is NO official statement from SE saying DRG was intended to be the best DPS. That's only what player-base came to after thorough theorycrafting and parsing. What if in 3.1 NIN becomes the best melee DPS? Would that then satisfy you? No other job has a guaranteed proc at one level, then a random branching proc system later. It would be fine if the random proc system meant better damage, but in reality it slows damage because there's actually more room for error. It makes no sense. I don't know why you guys are trying to justify it.

handful of other classes have also obtained skills that are effectively useless in practical circumstances and might as well be only working with 4 and the fifth that quite literally does not add anything to their gameplay (not even to make it dynamic like WT does), unless you happen to want one of those skills anyway, then we'll probably be seeing how every job only gets 5 skills but DRG gets the special treatment with 6 skills, useless or not.

Name one?
WT is literally FC just a different animation and a different position. It increases the BoTD timer, but so did FC and FC always proc'd 100% before you learn WT. There's no ability 52-60 I think think of that does literally nothing like WT does.

[RiceisNice]

Difference is: EA is gated behind WM. GK is not gated behind WT.

GK is gated by BotD which requires the utilization of both WT and FnC. Hell technically you need ot have WT to even use GK anyway because of the job quests. Would you be much more satisfied if FnC was only a 50% proc rate when you get it at lvl 56, and only then becomes a 100% proc rate for either FnC or WT at level 58?

Name one?
WT is literally FC just a different animation and a different position. It increases the BoTD timer, but so did FC and FC always proc'd 100% before you learn WT. There's no ability 52-60 I think think of that does literally nothing like WT does.

Except WT does do something. You just don't like what it does when it adds a dynamic factor to your rotation, and it along with WT and BoTD are eventually required for using GK. Warden's Paeon is functionally useless in any practical circumstances, so is clemency especially as a paladin MT. Sure you could use these two skills, but it's actually detrimental to your overall performance that you wouldn't want to go out of your way to use it anyway. You keep saying its worthless because it's not. It serves a purpose, it has a functional use, and it certainly does not detriment your performance for trying to use it (unlike Paeon or Clemecy for a MT paladin)

[fm_fenrir]

So poor design gets a handwave because the job is currently the best dps?

"Currently"? DRG has been the best DPS since they buffed hard positionals and magic defense ratings. It takes the least penalties for ignoring mechanics, has absurd burst damage, strong sustained damage, and can burn harder, longer with the F&C/WT extensions to its combos. Three of those things were true before Heavensward, and they're still true.

there is now a larger margin for error meaning there a few fractions of a second to screw up.

As Yoshi-P put it in his live letter about this very topic, "Git gud." I was playing DRG in the days of hard positionals, this is an argument about nothing. Especially after SE reversed their position and buffed the penalty from 190 to 90 potency.

it makes DRG a chore.

You don't want to do positionals, you just want to get showered in DPS for sticking to flank. DRG has literally one complicated thing to it: Making sure they hit positionals for maximum damage. That's it. F&C/WT force you to move a little, and it's really super trivial to do that thing--failure to move costs you a little potency, which is the "skill" part of the split chain.

It would be fine if the random proc system meant better damage, but in reality it slows damage because there's actually more room for error. It makes no sense. I don't know why you guys are trying to justify it.

I could post a bunch of crunch, but functionally the thing is that the fourth hit dramatically improves your TP efficiency as DRG. Making WT a fifth hit makes your TP efficiency absurdly good, and Invigorate just makes that even more out of control. You're looking at F&C/WT as a way to increase DRG's dps, and it does--by making it take longer for a DRG to bottom out on TP. The random proc might buy you fractions of a second to reposition, which might knock you over to a new tick and buy you 30TP you wouldn't have gotten if you just pounded out F&C combos all day long.

[JackFross]

100% a flat penalty. At 56 you have a 100% proc, unless you weren't paying attention. It was predictable and easy to plan for. At 58 now it's 50/50. It isn't hard, but there is now a larger margin for error meaning there a few fractions of a second to screw up. This isn't clever game design, it doesn't make DRG hard or more interesting to play, it makes DRG a chore. DRG may be the best DPS right now, but there is NO official statement from SE saying DRG was intended to be the best DPS. That's only what player-base came to after thorough theorycrafting and parsing. What if in 3.1 NIN becomes the best melee DPS? Would that then satisfy you? No other job has a guaranteed proc at one level, then a random branching proc system later. It would be fine if the random proc system meant better damage, but in reality it slows damage because there's actually more room for error. It makes no sense. I don't know why you guys are trying to justify it.

This will sound harsh, because that is exactly how I mean it to be.

What you're arguing against is *exactly* the reason the skill exists. It's the same thing as any of the following skills:

Bard
Warden's Paean

Ninja
Shadewalker
Smoke Screen

Paladin
Clemency

Are you going to whine about how all these jobs got shafted, too, by getting a skill that is practically worthless? At least our skill is actually used regularly. It adds fun to the class, makes it dynamic and way more enjoyable to play than it was back in 2.x. I would say this is subjective, but it really isn't. Dragoon was boring and rote. I've said this in this thread before. Now, it's entertaining. Variable. Makes you think, weigh options, and play way faster than you did back before Blood of the Dragon was a thing. Complaining about this because it "slows you down" or whatever you wanna argue is simply saying "I can't deal with this change, because I'm not fast enough to react."

The only response I can give to you is shape up or ship out. Learn to play with it. It slows *literally* nothing down. You have enough time to react, move, hit Jump (the biggest animation lock skill we have) and get off your positional with 0 delay. Please give me an example of a time where this slows you down so I can more definitively tell you that you should practice more.


I apologize for being rude, but it is really frustrating that I've had to outline this a million times in this same thread and still have people parroting the same nonsense again and again.

And, just to prove my point before someone calls foul!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4US9XMgNgC8

Watch my opener in this run. I hit CT [rear] > Leg+PS > FaC [flank] > Jump > Phleb while stacking rear before hitting Jump - and I have 0 downtime on the GCD.

[Nihility]

This will sound harsh, because that is exactly how I mean it to be.

What you're arguing against is *exactly* the reason the skill exists. It's the same thing as any of the following skills:

Bard
Warden's Paean

Ninja
Shadewalker
Smoke Screen

Paladin
Clemency

Are you going to whine about how all these jobs got shafted, too, by getting a skill that is practically worthless? At least our skill is actually used regularly. It adds fun to the class, makes it dynamic and way more enjoyable to play than it was back in 2.x. I would say this is subjective, but it really isn't. Dragoon was boring and rote. I've said this in this thread before. Now, it's entertaining. Variable. Makes you think, weigh options, and play way faster than you did back before Blood of the Dragon was a thing. Complaining about this because it "slows you down" or whatever you wanna argue is simply saying "I can't deal with this change, because I'm not fast enough to react."

The only response I can give to you is shape up or ship out. Learn to play with it. It slows *literally* nothing down. You have enough time to react, move, hit Jump (the biggest animation lock skill we have) and get off your positional with 0 delay. Please give me an example of a time where this slows you down so I can more definitively tell you that you should practice more.


I apologize for being rude, but it is really frustrating that I've had to outline this a million times in this same thread and still have people parroting the same nonsense again and again.

And, just to prove my point before someone calls foul!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4US9XMgNgC8

Watch my opener in this run. I hit CT [rear] > Leg+PS > FaC [flank] > Jump > Phleb while stacking rear before hitting Jump - and I have 0 downtime on the GCD.

You also left out the wanderer's minuet, and gauss barrel, and dissipation, and all the other ones people don't like but your also missing the point.

Even the most outwardly useless skill which i would probably argue is shadewalker doesn't really have any negative effects about it. Sure it's kind of a bummer of a skill but it doesn't really have any downside and even if it is miniscule it does add something to the class

Wheeling thrust or Fang and Claw(it doesn't really matter which, just wheeling thrust gets the scrutiny since it's the second one) doesn't really serve any purpose whatsoever and it is forced upon you. No dps increase, no utility, just extra work.
If you weren't forced to learn skills in order the top progression guild's dragoons would most likely all skip fang and claw because a rear positional is more useful and why would you want to do something that just adds more variables with no benefit when your trying to push the bleeding edge of new content?

You can't really say that about any other skill. There would be no tangible reason to skip learning shadewalker since the worst case scenario is just not using it.

There's really no reason it needs to be two separate skills at all as well.
They could have very easily just made it be "Fang and Claw: potency 200, extends dragon's blood duration" at 56 and the dragon's blood buffs be +90 to next fang and claw potency if executed at rear/flank.

When I say this I am not approaching from a "I enjoy the mechanic" standpoint at all btw
Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

[RiceisNice]

Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

WM/GB causes you to lose DPS in the same sense that WT does; if you can't do it properly, its a damage loss compared to before. The difference is that WM/GB when you get it is objectively a damage loss, and it used to be a damage loss up to and including at 60 until they had to buff it. WT serves its purpose in adding some sort of dynamic factor to DRG, but if you're against that, then welp.

WM/GB also causes you to do extra work for arbitrarily no damage gain (unless it's for AoEing) if you really think that way of WT, and only when you get the new abilities (which are locked behind WM/GB) does it become a damage increase. But we could say the same that GS is locked behind WT because well, you sorta need to get WT first.

Trying to use wardens paeon is actually a damage loss due to the rather long cast time, same with clemency on top of the fact it can get interrupted and resets the paladin's combo.

[JackFross]

When I say this I am not approaching from a "I enjoy the mechanic" standpoint at all btw
Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

This is a relatively fair form of criticism, I'll give you that. Objectively, it introduces an additional way to lower your dps by performing the class incorrectly without any notable bonus for performing properly outside of "I did the correct amount of damage."

However, that doesn't detract from the much more valid arguments which speak in favor of the skill. The introduction of this dynamic element to the most static melee dps class is a genius move on the part of the game developers. It's not a lazy decision - it's a deliberate one. They knew exactly where they wanted Dragoon to be. The problem was that putting us here without increasing the skill gap between good and great players of the class would be absolutely ludicrous.

Hence: Wheeling Thrust.

My main argument against giving Dragoons a "fifth" skill (since we already get 5...) is that we're ALREADY one of the highest DPS classes in the game AND we bring Battle Litany to the field, which is a huge gain for the party, believe it or not. If you gave us something else, it's gonna fall into one of these categories:
1. Messes with the current *beautiful* rotation, making things wonky and gross.
2. New utility move that makes Dragoons more attractive than they already are (90% of raid groups run one because BL+BRD/MCH buff).
3. New worthless skill like Feint that will *never* be used outside of certain situations which would actually still end up falling under 2 if it's *useful*.
4. New oGCD skill to boost our dps by a marginal amount we don't need to be boosted by while forcing us to squeeze YET ANOTHER skill into the first 24s of the fight.

None of those options are good. I want none of that.

Let me quote myself again, because everyone seems to still be ignoring this point aside from the same people who get it and agree. Yes, there's a plethora of abilities you can give us. The argument is that we either DO NOT WANT them or DO NOT NEED them.

I'd rather have my extra button be used for a skill that makes the class more fun than have it be devoted to something useless or OP.