Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[JackFross]

Why put more rng into the equation? Easiest solution is to give us another jump. It's blasphemy that NONE of the post-50 skills were jumps.

No, thanks. We already have 7 jumping skills to use per every 2 minutes of encounter. What cooldown would you give the new jump? What potency? Where would we even fit it in the opener?

Also...
re: refreshing Jump/SSD cooldowns:
That would boost the dps of the class. We don't need our dps boosted. We're exactly where we should be.

re: new jump move
See: above.

re: SO BORING
No. What's boring is levels 56 and 57. I recently finished leveling my alt's Dragoon. The most awkward stretch of levels was 56-57. Having *only* Fang and Claw feels weird and wrong, like something is missing. Maybe because I've been playing 60 DRG for so long, but eh.


All of the people suggesting changes completely ignore the very important thing called game balance. Each jump skill is a significant portion of your overall DPS. Adding another one would boost us EVEN HIGHER and make the opener even MORE button-mashy than it already is. I'm all for injecting complexity into the job and making it fun to play. Which is why. I say people need to get over 3.0 DRG skills. We get an amazing utility skill to inject much-needed raid utility to the class. And then we get a new mechanic to inject life and fluidity to what was an incredibly rigid class in 2.x. The RNG nature of the fourth hit of the combo *adds* to this fluidity. It's part of the flair and flavor of the class.

My honest opinion is this:

If the RNG nature of FaC and WT is enough to make you so mad you need to complain about it in this thread, why are you still playing my class?

[Seku]

If the RNG nature of FaC and WT is enough to make you so mad you need to complain about it in this thread, why are you still playing my class?

Because it was a complete and utter waste of development time and money since it serves no purpose and should be re-worked to do something other than give artificial difficulty to the class and take up hot bar space.

[RiceisNice]

Because it was a complete and utter waste of development time and money since it serves no purpose and should be re-worked to do something other than give artificial difficulty to the class and take up hot bar space.

If they were to rework the ability now, they'd have to rework DRG in general so it's tuned properly. They wanted to add something dynamic to the job, and outside of that, DRG is pretty damn well off even if they are technically short one ability. Compared to say NIN or BRD who literally have abilties that have no regular practical use (not even to add dynamics or flow to their gameplay).

Would it have been better for them to make FnC at level 56 have only a 50% proc chance, thus giving WT at levle 58 a purpose where it'd be a 50% chance to proc one or the other?

[Jonnycbad]

Wanderer's Minuet says hi.

Except Wanderer's Minuet is a DPS gain and enables use of Empyreal Arrow.

Wheeling Thrust does nothing but confound our 100% proc from level 54 while simultaneously adding no additional damage, it actually slows us down in a sense. WM adds 30% DPS and the abilities which are only used under WM makes BRD do more damage than pre-WM. As opposed to WT on DRG, we go from 100% side proc, to random 50% rear/50% side proc with no other benefit or purpose whatsoever. It is literally added skill bloat intended to slow us down in some sense. If we got WT and FC both at 54, it would be fine, but introducing it 2 levels later creates a sense that the skill is pointless and actually degrades us in some regard. Nothing like WM. Again, WM overall makes BRD stronger, albeit more annoying. WT makes DRG 'more annoying' but does not make them any stronger, instead it actually adds another element to pay attention to, AGAIN, with no added benefit. I'd rather have a risk/reward like WM, than a useless kill that is only risk and no reward.

They could EASILY move WT to level 54 since the abilities WT and FC are twins. Every other job gets 5 unique skills, we get 4 unique skill and a 5th skill that nerfs a previous skill and competes for a proc with no added benefit. It's strictly a cheap design.

[Jonnycbad]

My honest opinion is this:

If the RNG nature of FaC and WT is enough to make you so mad you need to complain about it in this thread, why are you still playing my class?

For the quadrillionth time, nobody is complaining about RNG of FaC and WT. We're complaining that at 54 it's 100% and at 56 it's now 50% but with no added damage boost. A new ability nerfs a previous ability with no other plus. It's not that the RNG is hard or difficult, it's that we go from having NO RNG, to having a RNG--but there isn't a boost in damage or ANYTHING. If WT came simultaneously with a trait for DRG at 56 that gave Action Damage+10% or something, then at least we could say leveling up to 56 makes DRG stronger, but leveling up to 56 makes DRG weaker.

[RiceisNice]

They could EASILY move WT to level 54 since the abilities WT and FC are twins. Every other job gets 5 unique skills, we get 4 unique skill and a 5th skill that nerfs a previous skill and competes for a proc with no added benefit. It's strictly a cheap design.

WM is a dps loss by itself, and was a dps loss throughout until the buff. WM only becomes a damage gain once you get empyreal arrow, which the same can be said for WT/FnC except they're strictly dps gains no matter how you slice it, and becomes more so when gerkisoul. Unfortunately what WM adds to BRD is essentially the same as what WT does for your class, cause they could have not implemented WM, but still give us empyreal arrow and ironjaws and it'd still be a DPS increase. It's only because they have to lock those skills behind WM is only then it becomes a gain (because otherwise it's a dps loss if those skills are not factored or otherwise restricted to WM)

As for "every other job giving 5 skills" does not matter much considering there are useless niches like clemecy, warden's paeon and smoke screen, unless you're happy to have one of those on your DRG and bloat your buttons even more (so you'd probably not even have it on your bar, and thus no difference to what it is now), and that DRG is already balanced between having those skills.

For the quadrillionth time, nobody is complaining about RNG of FaC and WT. We're complaining that at 54 it's 100% and at 56 it's now 50% but with no added damage boost. A new ability nerfs a previous ability with no other plus. It's not that the RNG is hard or difficult, it's that we go from having NO RNG, to having a RNG--but there isn't a boost in damage or ANYTHING. If WT came simultaneously with a trait for DRG at 56 that gave Action Damage+10% or something, then at least we could say leveling up to 56 makes DRG stronger, but leveling up to 56 makes DRG weaker.

And again, this is also the case for classes like BRD, MCH and maybe NIN in the sense that skills do not even make them stronger (only for NIN), but infact make them weaker until you get more skills to supplement it.

If you're angry about the loss of a "fifth" skill (because this is what it seems with the point you're trying to get across, you'd be perfectly fine if they gave WT along with FnC), I'd say get over it because a handful of other classes have also obtained skills that are effectively useless in practical circumstances and might as well be only working with 4 and the fifth that quite literally does not add anything to their gameplay (not even to make it dynamic like WT does), unless you happen to want one of those skills anyway, then we'll probably be seeing how every job only gets 5 skills but DRG gets the special treatment with 6 skills, useless or not.

Oh, and you get FnC at level 56. You have no "100%" at level 54. Not to nitpick but it looks kind of bad if you don't even know what level you get your skills for what I assume is your main that you're speaking out for

[fm_fenrir]

but there isn't a boost in damage or ANYTHING

If DRG wasn't The Best DPS by a significant margin, you could make this statement with more sincerity. The random nature of F&C/WT proc is annoying, but it isn't a flat penalty unless you're so dedicated to parking on the rear or flank that you're also throwing away HT/CT potency bonuses.

[Jonnycbad]

WM is a dps loss by itself, and was a dps loss throughout until the buff. WM only becomes a damage gain once you get empyreal arrow, which the same can be said for WT/FnC except they're strictly dps gains no matter how you slice it, and becomes more so when gerkisoul. Unfortunately what WM adds to BRD is essentially the same as what WT does for your class, cause they could have not implemented WM, but still give us empyreal arrow and ironjaws and it'd still be a DPS increase. It's only because they have to lock those skills behind WM is only then it becomes a gain (because otherwise it's a dps loss if those skills are not factored or otherwise restricted to WM)

Difference is: EA is gated behind WM. GK is not gated behind WT.

If DRG wasn't The Best DPS by a significant margin, you could make this statement with more sincerity. The random nature of F&C/WT proc is annoying, but it isn't a flat penalty unless you're so dedicated to parking on the rear or flank that you're also throwing away HT/CT potency bonuses.

So poor design gets a handwave because the job is currently the best dps? So if one patch MNK becomes the new flavor of the month DPS, will then it be warranted to evaluate how WT is literally a worthless ability, not even a weak ability, or situational ability (Feint), or annoying to use ability (WM) but a WORTHLESS ability.

The random nature of F&C/WT proc is annoying, but it isn't a flat penalty unless you're so dedicated to parking on the rear or flank that you're also throwing away HT/CT potency bonuses.

100% a flat penalty. At 56 you have a 100% proc, unless you weren't paying attention. It was predictable and easy to plan for. At 58 now it's 50/50. It isn't hard, but there is now a larger margin for error meaning there a few fractions of a second to screw up. This isn't clever game design, it doesn't make DRG hard or more interesting to play, it makes DRG a chore. DRG may be the best DPS right now, but there is NO official statement from SE saying DRG was intended to be the best DPS. That's only what player-base came to after thorough theorycrafting and parsing. What if in 3.1 NIN becomes the best melee DPS? Would that then satisfy you? No other job has a guaranteed proc at one level, then a random branching proc system later. It would be fine if the random proc system meant better damage, but in reality it slows damage because there's actually more room for error. It makes no sense. I don't know why you guys are trying to justify it.

handful of other classes have also obtained skills that are effectively useless in practical circumstances and might as well be only working with 4 and the fifth that quite literally does not add anything to their gameplay (not even to make it dynamic like WT does), unless you happen to want one of those skills anyway, then we'll probably be seeing how every job only gets 5 skills but DRG gets the special treatment with 6 skills, useless or not.

Name one?
WT is literally FC just a different animation and a different position. It increases the BoTD timer, but so did FC and FC always proc'd 100% before you learn WT. There's no ability 52-60 I think think of that does literally nothing like WT does.

[RiceisNice]

Difference is: EA is gated behind WM. GK is not gated behind WT.

GK is gated by BotD which requires the utilization of both WT and FnC. Hell technically you need ot have WT to even use GK anyway because of the job quests. Would you be much more satisfied if FnC was only a 50% proc rate when you get it at lvl 56, and only then becomes a 100% proc rate for either FnC or WT at level 58?

Name one?
WT is literally FC just a different animation and a different position. It increases the BoTD timer, but so did FC and FC always proc'd 100% before you learn WT. There's no ability 52-60 I think think of that does literally nothing like WT does.

Except WT does do something. You just don't like what it does when it adds a dynamic factor to your rotation, and it along with WT and BoTD are eventually required for using GK. Warden's Paeon is functionally useless in any practical circumstances, so is clemency especially as a paladin MT. Sure you could use these two skills, but it's actually detrimental to your overall performance that you wouldn't want to go out of your way to use it anyway. You keep saying its worthless because it's not. It serves a purpose, it has a functional use, and it certainly does not detriment your performance for trying to use it (unlike Paeon or Clemecy for a MT paladin)

[fm_fenrir]

So poor design gets a handwave because the job is currently the best dps?

"Currently"? DRG has been the best DPS since they buffed hard positionals and magic defense ratings. It takes the least penalties for ignoring mechanics, has absurd burst damage, strong sustained damage, and can burn harder, longer with the F&C/WT extensions to its combos. Three of those things were true before Heavensward, and they're still true.

there is now a larger margin for error meaning there a few fractions of a second to screw up.

As Yoshi-P put it in his live letter about this very topic, "Git gud." I was playing DRG in the days of hard positionals, this is an argument about nothing. Especially after SE reversed their position and buffed the penalty from 190 to 90 potency.

it makes DRG a chore.

You don't want to do positionals, you just want to get showered in DPS for sticking to flank. DRG has literally one complicated thing to it: Making sure they hit positionals for maximum damage. That's it. F&C/WT force you to move a little, and it's really super trivial to do that thing--failure to move costs you a little potency, which is the "skill" part of the split chain.

It would be fine if the random proc system meant better damage, but in reality it slows damage because there's actually more room for error. It makes no sense. I don't know why you guys are trying to justify it.

I could post a bunch of crunch, but functionally the thing is that the fourth hit dramatically improves your TP efficiency as DRG. Making WT a fifth hit makes your TP efficiency absurdly good, and Invigorate just makes that even more out of control. You're looking at F&C/WT as a way to increase DRG's dps, and it does--by making it take longer for a DRG to bottom out on TP. The random proc might buy you fractions of a second to reposition, which might knock you over to a new tick and buy you 30TP you wouldn't have gotten if you just pounded out F&C combos all day long.