MCH..The dying breed?

[RiceisNice]

....

It'd be fine if it didn't fall into the trap of the meta (since both classes technically share gear, a single player can interchangeably play the two if desired, or pick one over the other with preference over playstyle). As it stands, BRD is just objectively better when it comes to cutting edge because of the accuracy debuff for the healers (until they introduce 3.2 gear with accuracy materia anyway) and foe being better than hypercharge when regen isn't needed at all in a typical composition (speaking outside of progression anyway).

[Velhart]

It'd be fine if it didn't fall into the trap of the meta (since both classes technically share gear, a single player can interchangeably play the two if desired, or pick one over the other with preference over playstyle). As it stands, BRD is just objectively better when it comes to cutting edge because of the accuracy debuff for the healers (until they introduce 3.2 gear with accuracy materia anyway) and foe being better than hypercharge when regen isn't needed at all in a typical composition (speaking outside of progression anyway).

Its funny, Foe's Requiem should work more like Hypercharge, and Hypercharge should work more like Foe's Requiem. Put them both on oGCD with a timer without draining MP and increase both Mag/Phy attack by a certain percentage.

Sounds good on paper, but it would be hard to change a lot of the abilities at this point.

[RiceisNice]

Its funny, Foe's Requiem should work more like Hypercharge, and Hypercharge should work more like Foe's Requiem. Put them both on oGCD with a timer without draining MP and increase both Mag/Phy attack by a certain percentage.

Sounds good on paper, but it would be hard to change a lot of the abilities at this point.

I'm all for homogenizing their support (considering they are competiting for the same role of "support dps") as long as their gameplay isn't homogenized ...unfortunately the opposite is in effect.

[Velhart]

I'm all for homogenizing their support (considering they are competiting for the same role of "support dps") as long as their gameplay isn't homogenized ...unfortunately the opposite is in effect.

Its mostly because of WM/GB. If you take those out of the equation, while still similar, feel different enough to be called their own. Just my take on it.

What I want mostly out of MCH is a better form of sustained damage and better balance of support with BRD. Will we ever get that? I wouldn't put my money on it.

[RiceisNice]

Its mostly because of WM/GB. If you take those out of the equation, while still similar, feel different enough to be called their own. Just my take on it.

What I want mostly out of MCH is a better form of sustained damage and better balance of support with BRD. Will we ever get that? I wouldn't put my money on it.

Even outside of GB/WM, MCH just doesn't do quite enough on it's own to be "that" different from 2.0 bard. They maintain a buff (hotshot/SS), maintain one less DoT, and play re-actively to procs on their weaponskills (whereas MCH does this more frequently). There's very little interaction with the turret since it's mostly place-and-forget, and while their burst is different, it's only one side aspect of their core gameplay.

As a new job introduced from the expansion (which means they can put so much more thought and detail behind it, versus a 3.x patch or hotfix), it's incredibly disappointing to see it from that regard, and it's such a wasted opportunity for an entire new job where their initial previews were utilizing multiple attachments and ammunition to boost skills or being required for skills. It would have been nice ot have an AoE barrel that gave your weaponskills an AoE effect (at the cost of more TP and less damage) while getting rid of spread/grenado (which are functionally the same as QN/WV), and a barrel that increases dps at the cost of TP efficiency (for wildfire or burst/push phases). You can see that definitely being the case for Dork knight and AST (and in the case of the latter, it was relatively weak but that's what you can tune with hotfixes)

[Velhart]

snip

I think developers might be too scared to make the two jobs feel completely different. Its weird because Black Mage and Summoner feel completely different but both casting DPS's that excel in AoE. I am not sure why the same mind set could of been applied here in retrospect.

I love how MCH plays and my favorite job the game has made so far, but its still fair to point out they didn't really go out of their way to make it very different from BRD.

[Alahra]

-snip-

In a sense, I still think GB/WM is part of the problem. DRK is rather similar to PLD up until 50, at which point their skill kits start to diverge further, and they end up feeling different at 60. BRD and MCH don't differentiate from 50-60 that much because of WM/GB.

GB and WM are the same ability essentially.
Empyreal Arrow and Gauss Round have slightly different functionality but serve the same purpose of making up for the loss of auto attacks on single target.
Richochet/Sidewinder are essentially both just new oGCD attacks.

That's 3 of 5 new abilities that are devoted to essentially the same exact thing that don't even really function all that different from one another. And 3-4 abilities can do a lot to make shared role jobs feel different from one another. Most of what DRK gets after 50 is pretty unique to them, at least among the tanks, which goes a long way toward differentiating it from PLD and WAR.

[RiceisNice]

..

It definitely doesn't help that GB/WM are functionally the same. In fact, if they worked differently (one boosts attack speed and lowers TP cost, or even add a new mechanic like a stacking buff of sorts used for oGCD usage), it'd go a long way compared to what it is now, instead of straight up adding cast times (which doesn't do much to begin with, esp for 2.0 BRDs who made it a habit to not move when unnessescary).

But outside of not having WM/GB, I still feel the two jobs are still extremely similar to each other is what I'm getting at. Not that it's a problem because end game isn't at level 50.

I think developers might be too scared to make the two jobs feel completely different. Its weird because Black Mage and Summoner feel completely different but both casting DPS's that excel in AoE. I am not sure why the same mind set could of been applied here in retrospect.

I love how MCH plays and my favorite job the game has made so far, but its still fair to point out they didn't really go out of their way to make it very different from BRD.

Exactly this. And it's exactly why with a new expansion, you can't play it safe with something like new job or content; it has to be well...new. It's so much easier to mak these big changes during its developmental phase, then make needed adjustments as you get player input (like when 20% WM/GB was a damage loss, and AST in general)

[Alahra]

But outside of not having WM/GB, I still feel the two jobs are still extremely similar to each other is what I'm getting at. Not that it's a problem because end game isn't at level 50.

Honestly, the two jobs feel better differentiated to me at 50 than they do at 60, at least in terms of like, how my fingers move about my keybinds. That's a really hard thing to quantify, but to me at least, MCH's combo+proc system feels a lot different from Heavy Shot+Bloodletter procs. They're still fairly similar, of course (but so are DRK and PLD/WAR, so they aren't alone there). It's just that GB/WM then go and make them *more* similar, which was a really poor design decision, especially, as you note, because this was an expansion.

They're also so similar in terms of what they do for the party that one or the other is always going to be preferred for content because it's more effective. The only notable difference is the Physical Resistance debuff that MCH has, but it's not good enough that you would for some reason have another physical DPS instead of a caster in your DPS loadout. It also doesn't help that Foe Requiem is just easier to apply (and works better in situations with multiple targets that you can't group up) than the Magic Resistance debuff from Hypercharged Bishop.

They probably should have diversified their utility more, too. Personally, I've been pondering the idea of MCH providing the Piercing debuff, so that they don't necessitate a DRG, which would possibly make them a bit different from BRD in terms of favored party compositions.

[Jonnycbad]

Wish they would make WM/GB more like Dreadwyrm trance in that they are temporary stances that last for like 15seconds, so most of the time, we play like our pre 52 selves, and for 15seconds can use the new abilities (modifying their recasts of course).