The issue nobody wants to address

[Odett]

I can't believe this topic is still going. Can't we just agree to disagree?
Some people like the idea, some hate it. It seems like a pretty equal amount on both sides so far. And both sides are not gonna suddenly get convinced by the same arguments the other side has stated time and again, because the problem here isn't that the other side hasn't heard those arguments before and therefore didn't have the same revelation you did have yet, but because they value different things in their community, had different experiences and so on.

It's hard to agree to disagree with an issue like this because it means that things won't change. Some people here have argued that the current state of parsers is fine because people who benefit from parsers are already using them, but like Whiteroom pointed out (and the anti-parser crowd has conveniently not replied to this), this is purely false because console players do not have a means of using parsers. I don't want to be a burden to my PC friends every time I tweak my rotation and cooldown usage to see which one gives me better damage over time or more burst. I'd like to see how much damage I can do over a 2 minute span on my BLM compared to my DRG or NIN. These are all things I cannot do by myself, and I enjoy bettering myself as a player and constantly pushing myself to do more damage because that is one of the ways that I have fun playing this game.

Also, I've asked this question in other threads and still no answer has been given. Suppose that you are PFing Bismarck EX (I'll use this as an example as it's an infinitely easier check that anything Alex Savage has to offer, and is more accessible to the entire player-base than AS). You are not meeting DPS checks and you keep wiping. After four attempts and dying at the same part of the fight, you can either disband the whole group, or actually deal with the problem and kick the one or two players who were not performing up to par. Why is it easier to wish to remain willfully ignorant of what's going on instead of dealing with the problem? Why are people so insistent on barking out a healer or tank who are causing wipes, but remove all responsibilities from DPS players?

As a sidenote, no one is arguing about values in the communities. Many people have different reasons for playing this game, and that will never change. You have players who play mostly for the social aspect, you have others that play to rise to the challenge of this game's hardest content, you have those that vaule crafting over everything else, and others have a combination of the things stated above, or other factors I didn't mention. In that aspect, of course, there is no "right" way to play this game. BUT, if you choose to enter a fight, and your chosen playstyle is keeping a group from clearing (as the worst example), or you are pushing 300-500 DPS in a dungeon where other players have to perform better in order to make up for your lack of damage, then the group reserves every right to kick you.

[Jynx]

(and the anti-parser crowd has conveniently not replied to this), this is purely false because console players do not have a means of using parsers.

many people many times have said they are not against a dummy parser. Giving you the option as a console player that option without shoving the tools on everyone in a party scenario.

I'm just flabergasted at people who are trying to justify the parser on pretty much just the need to kick party members for being bad. You seriously don't need a parser to tell who is just face-mashing their keyboard in a attempt to look compitent. It's a weak strawman to try and justify your want to see everyone numbers. I have nothing against parsers, I just feel as a community tool it will do far more harm than good as they are not even required for next to any content in the game. Alexander Savage is pretty much the only content with DPS checks tight enough to justify a parser and again that information would only be usefull to the people who know how to interperet that data instead of just looking for a number higher than the rest.

[Archaell]

...

You think that parser would do harm to the community - I think it would give dps players responsibility. That it would make tank's and healer's life easier as the focus would be better divided between the roles. Right now when somebody dies, even if it is due to low dps, I am expected as the healer to explain what happened. If I lack the knowledge or awarness I am the one blamed. If there were parsers, I could point to the numbers and say that average group does twice as much dps, which saves both mana and decreases the chance of wiping. Now if I say dps was low I get laughed at, because "proof or it didn't happen".

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that parser would increase or decrease overall dps done by the community? Don't worry about the change being barely noticable or not.

[Elazu]

Funny how still nobody answered the question of why it is okay to call out tanks and healers when they fail their responsibilites, but dps players deserve a free pass regardless of how bad they are simply for being dps players. The outrage that would happen if all tanks and healers started putting in as much effort as the average duty finder dps would probably be absolutely hilarious.

[OPneedNerfs]

If you've ever kicked/caused a run to disband by leaving because of a bad tank who could not hold hate or a bad healer who could not keep everyone alive, yet are against people kicking bad DPS players, there is only 1 word to describe you.

hypocrite

[hip-uh-krit]

noun

1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

The biggest and only question that the anti-parse, anti-effort, anti-performance crowd is failing to answer has been posted multiple times.

Why should a Tank or Healer be kicked/judged/abused for not holding hate or keeping people alive while a DPS can perform half-assed and get away with it?"

In case people have a different meaning for DPS, last I checked, for an mmorpg it meant:

Damage per second (DPS) is a term used with computer games to describe the average rate of damage inflicted over time. The term is especially common in massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) and is a key aspect of theorycraft. In this circumstance, "Damage" is a scalar quantity that is applied to an in-game opponent, until that opponent's capacity for absorbing damage is exceeded and the opponent is defeated. Therefore the higher the DPS value, the less time it takes to defeat an opponent.

The term can also be used as a verb - to "DPS" an opponent is to inflict the maximum damage possible in the shortest time or as a noun, to describe a class which has a particularly high DPS, though this usage is debatable, with "DD" (Damage Dealer) an acceptable alternative.

and also an interesting bit from:

Every MMORPG class is capable of doing damage, of course. A Tanker in City of Heroes or a Priest in World of Warcraft wouldn't be able to play solo at all if they couldn't. But the primary purpose of these other classes isn't to inflict pain on their enemies. That's where the DPS class comes in.

So when a player on a DPS role is dealing equal or less than that of a healer/tank in similar gear, what is the purpose of the player in that role?

[Jynx]

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that parser would increase or decrease overall dps done by the community? Don't worry about the change being barely noticable or not.

Personally I'd say it would see no increase or decrease as far as the Duty Finder is concerned.

What it would do however is you would just see less people using the duty finder in general to avoid the pressure to impress people looking for unrealistic numbers out of people. DPS allready have "responsibillity" that you seem to think they lack, I've said it time and before it's not rocket sceince when DPS is slow and who it's slow with.

In your example you say your expected as the healer to explain when someone dies, then it's pretty simple explanation. Unless you failed to do your job one of two things happened.

1.Bad tank positioning
2.Slow DPS/DPS positioning
If you "Lack information or awareness" on either of these then you aren't doing your job. As a DPS I need to be aware of the tank, healer, monster positioning do optimal DPS and avoid taking unwaranted damage, I should be able to explain all of this without needing a number to back it up. If you have trust issues in the fact that you need to "Prove it" you need to step away from the duty finder.

Premades and Party-Finder are the optimal way to complete dungeons without hassle you sign up to duty finder and get random people, expect your groups preformance to vary with use.

Funny how still nobody answered the question of why it is okay to call out tanks and healers when they fail their responsibilites, but dps players deserve a free pass regardless of how bad they are simply for being dps players.

It's not ok to call out tanks and healer and not DPS you just don't need a parser to do that.

[Whiteroom]

many people many times have said they are not against a dummy parser. Giving you the option as a console player that option without shoving the tools on everyone in a party scenario.

I'm just flabergasted at people who are trying to justify the parser on pretty much just the need to kick party members for being bad.

I don't think anyone has tried to justify it on pretty much just the need to kick people, that is however, the primary point that people seem to take issue with, so its fairly obvious that that would be the hot topic when discussing them.

Did you want to debate how you can use it to view a healers mana efficiency during different encounters or rotations? Or a dps's for that matter? I assume you don't need to, as it is obvious that it can serve a purpose there, and people don't assume everyone with turn into efficiency zombies that will kick everyone if there dps to mp ratio isn't 10:1.

There are more things you can do with them as well, but as long as people are under the misconception that parsers are some awful virus that will turn everyone into dps eating zombies, kick abuse will be the most talked about issue.

That, and that god awful dps is currently rampant in this game.

Personally I'd say it would see no increase or decrease as far as the Duty Finder is concerned.

I don't know, DCUO had far less cases of really horrible dps than I see here, you still see the odd person putting out 1/5 the dps of others, but not near as common. As before, I'm willing to bet most players do not have any idea where there numbers stand, not even close. If you have no idea if you are playing sub par, why would you try to improve?

[Kolaina]

i think parsers could be beneficial to the community. how many people out there are unaware their numbers are lacking but dont have the tools to improve? or they want to theory craft their own rotations but cant figure out if what they came up with has a positive out come or is more detrimental. or just over the course of a few weeks watching how much of an increase you get in dps, being proud you are starting to tighten up your rotations in various encounters
i understand the fear of being called out cause you're under performing. but maybe your performance is due to ignorance, and you dont know you can do better. i highly doubt people are going to kick people due to parsers unless it requires dps checks, like extreme primals or end game raids. but really, in that content, you should know already you're expected to perform.

[Zojha]

If you have no idea if you are playing sub par, why would you try to improve?

Personally, I would take:"Being last in aggro at all times" without using any anti-aggro abilities or anyone dying as a very broad hint my game is a tad unimpressive.

Then again, some people might not even know about the aggro bar...

[Whiteroom]

Personally, I would take:"Being last in aggro at all times" without using any anti-aggro abilities or anyone dying as a very broad hint my game is a tad unimpressive.

Then again, some people might not even know about the aggro bar...

Some don't, I would venture most, and almost no one uses aggro dumps (also, the amount of people that say they use the aggro bar just fine to see it, but don't take aggro dumps into consideration...). Also, that dps that is attacking the last mob on the aggro list, there's always one.

Also, it is a very, very,very, broad hint, as it depends entirely on the abilities of the rest of the team, and if they have dumped or not. It is not useful at all for seeing how different rotations preform or their efficiency. It is the most basic and easily misinterpreted method.