The issue nobody wants to address

[Archaell]

Guys, guys, GUYS! ... Too much coffee. ^.^

So I have just finished Fractal for my Eso farm and dps was sooooo low you wouldn't believe it. At first I thought it was due to one dps being bard (don't blame me for conclusions), then it kept bugging me so I checked their gear - it was okay. I also checked summoner's gear - at first glance okay. The summoner had pumpkin on her head so I also thought about the possibility of trolling. Just to make sure, after the first boss, which took ages to kill, I checked the gear again... and guess what? The summoner was using lvl 50 weapon... the trolling seemed even more likely. But as it turned out, they just equiped their weapon for glamours instead of the correct one. Why am I writing this? It is quite simple, something that I assumed was bard issue turned out to be summoner's issue - Parser would make it easier and faster for me to correct the problem.

...

I agree with you that dps checks are boring, the whole business of overgearing is annoying, but we have kind of reached conclusion that content with too many mechanics wouldn't work with our casual players in their current state, when it is too hard for them to press correct skills at the right time.

Don't worry about changing people's minds - by this point it's obvious that nobody is going to change theirs, so nobody expects you to change yours.

[CosmicKirby]

snip

I'm not quite sure how you don't see the implications of your initial post at all.

BTW calling people lazy scrubs is really not a very tolerant way to behave, and considering how most people in general treat kids with any developmental disability, and the words that they use to describe them, I'm disappointed to see you using that kind of language.

Firstly, you're disappointed in someone, after stating that kids with disabilities are often the recipients of poor treatment. It's clear here that you're trying to imply that the poster, being autistic themselves, should be able to remember a time when they themselves were mistreated in that way, you could even interpret this in a way where you're assuming the poster is also a kid. Then you're disappointed that they didn't resolve to not use harsh language.
Usually when one tries to state they're disappointed in someone it's a rather intimate way of stating disapproval. Usually I'd consider a parent or teacher to be disappointed in me not a random person I disagree with. The way it's being said it sounds like you're trying to relate with the poster purely because of some similarities you both have in life experience, but you're chiding them for not developing the same way you did. The fact that you ostensibly had a list of qualifications, then spoke to someone who might be in the same boat as you in a patronizing matter, as if from some platform of superior experience, is how it comes off as condescending.

I took it at face value as a disparaging remark aimed at gamers the poster thinks are not as good as he is.

That's a huge leap in logic. He's describing them as lazy and not as bad.

In other words, someone that through their own life experience should know not to use disparaging or negative remarks, went right ahead anyway. I simply pointed that out.

And you then said how disappointed you were, in a very 'you should know better' sort of way.

Much less you're misconstruing negative feedback of any kind with prejudice and generalizations. Tolerance has no real relation with criticism in this post or in the general argument.
I'll take the post at face value and assume they are only referring to people who are, in their opinion, "lazy scrubs". I wouldn't go so far as to think that means anyone who's worse than they are.

Being completely frank; it sounds overly defensive that someone would interpret a non-directed insult to mean that.

[Whiteroom]

In other words, someone that through their own life experience should know not to use disparaging or negative remarks, went right ahead anyway. I simply pointed that out.

But it's not ok to point out to an experienced level 60 dps, that should know how to use their rotations, that they are playing sub par?

[Kosmos992k]

I'm not quite sure how you don't see the implications of your initial post at all.

Perhaps because the implications exist in your head, not mine.

**considerable snippage**
That's a huge leap in logic. He's describing them as lazy and not as bad.

Who's breating who again?

BTW you seem to be attempting to redefine "lazy scrubs" into some neutral term that somehow isn't negative and judgemental, your entire misplaced rant seems based on an incredibly unrealistic and highly optimistic interpretation of "lazy scrubs". I don't know anyone who takes that phrase to mean anything other than a negative description of people that the person using the phrase considers to be somehow lesser. In this context, it's painfully obvious that the inference was about player skill.

[Colorful]

In this context, it's painfully obvious that the inference was about player skill.

And? S/he stated that s/he disliked players who performed poorly, and that it was due to their laziness. I can't disagree, learning a basic rotation is incredibly simple and requires 30 minutes to an hour of practice at most. Is s/he not allowed to hold an opinion because it might offend some the exact people that are the problem? How about instead of taking offense, they take it as feedback and get better at the game?

[Priya]

Why are people so opposed to attaching responsibility to a DPS role? Every other role has it, and it's a common thing in multiplayer games to know how your teammates are doing....Would you like me to go into dungeons and start doing 500-800 DPS while watching TV? I'm sure no one would mind, because I'm a DPS and they should have no responsibility. /s

SE could always open up a whole new can of worms, remove DR on stun/silence, give the bosses stuff that MUST be stuned/silenced (immune to it during other casts to avoid cheesing), and then put most of that burden on the DPS in the same fashion WoW does with Stunlock/Silence/Dispel. Lazy DPS would really be unhappy then. Everyone would know when they're not bothering to try and there's no parser involved!

I never understood why SE put most of the stunning responsibilities on tanks in this game. Hell, they barely have had us use stuns/silences. Last I remember there being a focus on it was Leviathan, Ifrit, and ADS*.


*I'm aware BRDs were also involved with ADS silencing.

[CosmicKirby]

Perhaps because the implications exist in your head, not mine.

Well, the written word is open to a lot of interpretation, more so than speech. It pays to consider how you might be received when typing out a message that might not have the same verbal and somatic queues in face-to-face conversation. Notice how I said your statement "could also be interpreted as" at one point? It certainly can, but it's unclear. Blaming a reader for the interpretation isn't a good way to argue. Typically when I find that people don't react how I expect them to when I speak or write, I try to examine if I could have been more cogent, that's how I react to criticism and negative feedback.


If the likes I received in my posts are indicative of anything, others possibly felt that way as well.

BTW you seem to be attempting to redefine "lazy scrubs" into some neutral term that somehow isn't negative and judgemental, your entire misplaced rant seems based on an incredibly unrealistic and highly optimistic interpretation of "lazy scrubs". I don't know anyone who takes that phrase to mean anything other than a negative description of people that the person using the phrase considers to be somehow lesser. In this context, it's painfully obvious that the inference was about player skill.

I take objection to this on a base level, my comments on reacting to criticism will reflect this, but first.

Scrub can usually be understood as a term of status firstly, and an insult second. To quote actual writing:

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

So if a player is playing poorly, which we CAN assume in this case, (if the original poster was actually carrying underperforming players,) they can accurately be called bad at the current game they're playing. When conflict arises, people tend to have to interact in less than entirely positive ways. Aptly criticizing players who are not good and are not playing with the mindset of winning, one that requires you strive to improve, is an acceptable way of communicating.

Negative feedback isn't inherently incorrect or rude, and it can very well be constructive. As I mentioned earlier, I personally tend to reflect on the situation with the consideration that the criticism is legitimate. If someone is calling me out on doing something poorly, I'll first consider that I am in-fact doing it poorly, and I would then correct myself if my performance was found/likely the case.

I think there's a very distinguishable difference of opinion here. I do not find negative responses and words to be so disruptive as to justify that one should endeavor to avoid them. They serve a purpose.
Further, I don't find the consequences of using reasonably negative language to be so severe that one shouldn't use them to accurately describe others. A couple of negative words about how I perform in a videogame has yet to have a substantial effect on my enjoyment of them in about 20 years. Especially the words of individuals whom I have no relation to.

In short: Yes, calling them "lazy scrubs" is a bit negative, it's supposed to be. In a situation like arguing over a videogame with strangers, that's fine.

[RickXRolled]

I'm happy for you that you are capable of so much. I've worked with people with autism (allover the specturm of severity and symptom), CP, neuropathy, anxiety, and OCD among other issues; I'm extremely well aware of the range in capabilty, and especially in dealing with social interaction. The vast majority of the people I have met or worked with in this regard have difficulty dealing with any social interactions that are even remotely confrontational, and some won't interact beyond superficial greetings and pleasantries, and that is among those who will interact socially at all. The point being, everybody has different capability both in terms of playing and in terms of interacting.

It's great that you are able to cope with and overcome the challenges of life with Autism. Please also note that most people haven't got a clue that Autism is a specrtum disorder that ranges in both symptom and severity, and therefore many people don't understand that your experience isn't typical of Autism in general and is not typical of others.

BTW calling people lazy scrubs is really not a very tolerant way to behave, and considering how most people in general treat kids with any developmental disability, and the words that they use to describe them, I'm disappointed to see you using that kind of language.

I have multiple problems, including the ones you listed. I do not allow myself to be a liabillity, do not allow myself to fail. So even something as simple as df expert has my undivided attention and makes me play at raid level. The amount of concentration required for me to perform at this level is immense. I have to pay attention to my own tunnel vision, buffs, dots, mob health, hazard zones,mechanics, other players, player health all the while maintaining rotation. While some raiders would laugh at this and take it for granted, for someone like me who has severe issues with multi tasking and tunnel vision it requires full concentration.

So while I, a person with a handicap, give it my all, most randomns I end up with don't even try. I have tolerated this and have been carrying these people since 2.0, but I'm tired of playing the nice guy. Is it to much to ask for me that people should atleast be able to play within 50-70% of job potential instead of 15-30%?

[Atoli]

I can't believe this topic is still going. Can't we just agree to disagree?
Some people like the idea, some hate it. It seems like a pretty equal amount on both sides so far. And both sides are not gonna suddenly get convinced by the same arguments the other side has stated time and again, because the problem here isn't that the other side hasn't heard those arguments before and therefore didn't have the same revelation you did have yet, but because they value different things in their community, had different experiences and so on.

[Archaell]

I can't believe this topic is still going. Can't we just agree to disagree?

As long as the problem exists people aren't going to stop. And you can be sure that the second parser would be supported the topic would be reopened by anti-parsing side...

In situations when silence means defeat for one side, you can't really agree to disagree. All this talking might seem like useless waste of time (it is not wasted when people like to discuss things), but it also creates waves which might get noticed by devs and influence their future features.