The issue nobody wants to address

[Archaell]

What it would do however is you would just see less people using the duty finder in general to avoid the pressure to impress people looking for unrealistic numbers out of people.

So wouldn’t dps queue times decrease?

DPS allready have "responsibillity" that you seem to think they lack, I've said it time and before it's not rocket sceince when DPS is slow and who it's slow with.

Okay, dps players have a little bit of responsibility. Would you say that they have same amount of responsibility as tanks and healers?
For the second part of your sentence: Do you think that it is easier to tell if the tank/healer does poor job, or when the dps and which one does poor job?

In your example you say your expected as the healer to explain when someone dies, then it's pretty simple explanation. Unless you failed to do your job one of two things happened.
1.Bad tank positioning
2.Slow DPS/DPS positioning

3. Undergeared tank and fear of defensive CDs.

If you "Lack information or awareness" on either of these then you aren't doing your job. As a DPS I need to be aware of the tank, healer, monster positioning do optimal DPS and avoid taking unwaranted damage, I should be able to explain all of this without needing a number to back it up. If you have trust issues in the fact that you need to "Prove it" you need to step away from the duty finder.

Okay. If the healer „lack information or awarness“ they aren’t doing their job. If dps players lack information or awarness – they aren’t doing their job. But hey, they lack the information – they need parser to be informed if they do their optimal dps or not.

It's not ok to call out tanks and healer and not DPS you just don't need a parser to do that.

It is not ok to call anybody. Yet tanks/healers get called more often. Why is to so...

[Jynx]

It is not ok to call anybody. Yet tanks/healers get called more often. Why is to so...

Not because of a lack of DPS parsers ingame that's for sure.

Tanks and Healers get "Called out" more often because the general gamer considers these roles more important than the DPS roll, more often than not tanks and heals tend to gladly accept the glory until they get called out because of more attention being placed on them to scrutinize their abillity.

That's not a parser issue that's a social issue, even if you had parses DPS would just try and explain they were holding back because they were afraid the tank would lose agro and the healer would go 0mp because he cure-bombs. Parsers are not the solution nor are they even part of the solution, the duty finder has engrained this behavior into the community due to the lack of blowback for being bad at your job or just a jerk. Adding the parser only gives players more tools, to abuse or to use is up to them but this community has more often than not been found to err on the side of harassing people before helping them.

[Kolaina]

Not because of a lack of DPS parsers ingame that's for sure.

no, its because due to their roles in the party, mistakes and slacking off are far more noticeable. and when the mobs arent dying fast enough the response is usually to tell the healer to dps more. no onus on the dps

[Malevicton]

Wait, why is it not okay to call out anybody? I don't even agree with that assumption, let alone all the arguments branching from it. If you join group content, you should be trying to help the group to the best of your abilities. To not do so is rude. I'll call you out if you're being rude.

[Archaell]

Wait, why is it not okay to call out anybody? I don't even agree with that assumption, let alone all the arguments branching from it. If you join group content, you should be trying to help the group to the best of your abilities. To not do so is rude. I'll call you out if you're being rude.

My apologies. Of course I ment calling them out as in "being jerk" about it, which is the usual treatment when tank/healer doesn't perform to other's standard.

[Whiteroom]

Parsers are not the solution nor are they even part of the solution, the duty finder has engrained this behavior into the community due to the lack of blowback for being bad at your job or just a jerk.

Wait... what?

Having a metric for your performance is not even part of a solution to the problem of poor performance? Could you explain please?

To me this is just as foolish of a statement as saying that they are the be all, and end all of solution to issue. Which aside from your assertions, I have yet to see anyone be foolish enough to claim.

Adding the parser only gives players more tools...

How about that.

...this community has more often than not been found to err on the side of harassing people before helping them.

Sooo.... parsers didn't make this happen? Interesting.

Sorry to state the obvious, but every community has this issue.

Also, I did find it funny when you listed off the healers responsibilities, yet a dps isn't even responsible for having a half decent rotation, the most basic part of their job?

[Misutoraru]

I can't believe this topic is still going. Can't we just agree to disagree?
Some people like the idea, some hate it. It seems like a pretty equal amount on both sides so far. And both sides are not gonna suddenly get convinced by the same arguments the other side has stated time and again, because the problem here isn't that the other side hasn't heard those arguments before and therefore didn't have the same revelation you did have yet, but because they value different things in their community, had different experiences and so on.

it will never reach an end
ppl who support it, ppl who against it
two side of a coin, they co-exist
it is more which side you weight more
does it help improve some ppl play, it does, but does it also induce jerk, it does
each side will never agree with the other
but here is where we could voice out what we thing
even though it is a never ending topic
ppl who support it will keep giving the benefit of it
and ppl who against it will continuous showing the draw-back
the weighting are always personal and subjective

[Urthdigger]

It's not ok to call out tanks and healer and not DPS you just don't need a parser to do that.

Pray tell, when my DPS are melee such as MNK and DRG so I can't see what spells they're using on the party list, and I'm trying to do my own job as healer, how am I to tell which one was responsible for failing a DPS check? They could be completely mucking up their rotation, and unless I'm keeping an eye on the battle log instead of their HP I wouldn't be able to tell.

[Ryel]

Not because of a lack of DPS parsers ingame that's for sure.

Tanks and Healers get "Called out" more often because the general gamer considers these roles more important than the DPS roll, more often than not tanks and heals tend to gladly accept the glory until they get called out because of more attention being placed on them to scrutinize their abillity.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the glory bit, at best Tanks and Healers are expected to play at the level of content they queue into, if they don't there are no end of complaints about what you are doing wrong from players who won't even touch the jobs, If you do your job correctly you usually get tossed a few commendations by default and people go on with their day.

In general Tanks and Healers receive no end of feedback regardless of how well we play in fact many times that feedback is subjective.

Common examples:

"You're pulling too much!"
"You're pulling too little!"
"Healer why aren't you doing damage while healing?"
"Healer why are you doing damage while healing?"
"Why are you tanking it there?"
"Why aren't you tanking it there?"
"Why aren't you doing x,y,z strat I've seen on youtube?"
"You're doing x,y,z strat? Why? it's terrible!!"
"Why are you wearing VIT!? STR is better!"
"Why are you wearing STR!? VIT is better!"
"You're wearing melded gear? Way to waste your gil!"

Personally i don't take issue with this, feedback isn't always positive.

I do take issue that the comments in this thread lead me to believe that players who play DPS jobs think they are above or immune to class based feedback though, by virtue of not wanting an in game system in place that provides performance feedback.

That's not a parser issue that's a social issue, even if you had parses DPS would just try and explain they were holding back because they were afraid the tank would lose agro and the healer would go 0mp because he cure-bombs. Parsers are not the solution nor are they even part of the solution, the duty finder has engrained this behavior into the community due to the lack of blowback for being bad at your job or just a jerk. Adding the parser only gives players more tools, to abuse or to use is up to them but this community has more often than not been found to err on the side of harassing people before helping them.

Well actually, lack of a public parsing tool is part of the issue which drives community behavior.

Whiteroom posted this earlier but i don't think anyone actually acknowledged it fully before they tried to continue this trend of one-uppping the other side posting:

The simple fact is, the game relies almost exclusively on dps for encounters, and there is no way for a player or group to have a metric of their dps. Do you not think thats even a little strange sounding?

Think about that for a second and really let that sink in.

We have had DPS checks in the game as early as Demon Wall (which needed to be nerfed mind you). Almost all of our endgame encounters for the past 2 years have relied on or included some form of DPS condition for victory, there are almost zero stamina based fights in this game that can rely on a tank and healer together outlasting a boss because they all have a form of timed enrage based on damage done.

Yet there are zero in game systems to provide feedback or performance assessment to what the game defines as one of it's most crucial roles, and everyone is okay with this?

People come in here and say "Well PC players already have access to parsers!!!!" completely ignoring the console communities as if they don't deserve to have access to the same tools, that or they're entirely okay with making them ask PC players to give them feedback from a third party tool that the game doesn't even officially support.

Healers and tanks have their performance laid bare from the second they step foot into Sastasha. No heals? Can't hold hate? The party is going to know it the second it happens, those jobs are going to get 45 levels of player feedback from that point on.

But a DPS? nah that'd be toxic.

[tjw]

Pray tell, when my DPS are melee such as MNK and DRG so I can't see what spells they're using on the party list, and I'm trying to do my own job as healer, how am I to tell which one was responsible for failing a DPS check? They could be completely mucking up their rotation, and unless I'm keeping an eye on the battle log instead of their HP I wouldn't be able to tell.

There are actually two ways I can tell, as a healer, if the DPS in my party are doing their rotations.

1. I continuously check the status bars of the enemy and my fellow party members. I can thus see if the DPS are applying dots, debuffs, and their own buffs, and if they're refreshing buffs with Blizzard IV/WT and F&C/Mudras etc. If the run is especially slower than expected, I start paying even more attention to see where the DPS are losing their momentum.
2. Having my field of vision constantly changing around the screen, it's easy for me to notice animations and sound-effects of the typical spells and abilities of a DPS. Of course, this means you have to know the animations for the corresponding spell, which for people who don't level alt jobs, may be difficult, but if I all I hear is Ring of Thorns spamming in the background, I know that my DRG isn't up to par. If all I see is the Full-Thrust combo without BotD, I know that my DRG isn't utilising his tools.