The issue nobody wants to address

[Colorful]

snip

Why go through all that unnecessary nonsense when you could potentially just look at the UI and see the numbers everyone is doing in a split second? Maybe I'm just awful and get tunnel visioned too easily, but while I'm trying to output maximum DPS in Bismarck/Ravana, I can't really ignore the fight and start paying attention to how other people are doing unless it's a class I know well (and the only class I know well, or at all, is Ninja).

[Eye_Gore]

paying attention to how other people are doing

Backseat drivers are everywhere. I'm with you though. When I'm tanking an instance, especially larger mobs, don't even have time nor pay attention to what others are doing, so much going in. Maybe its a DPS thing.

[tjw]

...I can't really ignore the fight and start paying attention to how other people are doing unless it's a class I know well (and the only class I know well, or at all, is Ninja).

That's just you then. I KNOW my healer jobs well enough that I CAN afford to pay attention outside of what I am doing and check other people's actions. I don't necessarily click on each person, but as a healer, I am seeing the field often enough that I can capture everyone's movements on the field.

Your first sentence is quite offensive actually. So just because you can't be bothered to up your game and use what the game gives you right now, it's my fault for going beyond and making use of what I can? "Why go through all that nonsense". Yes, why do I try to help my party by doing beyond my role, why should I be anything but a tunnel-visioning DPS intent on getting the highest e-peen numbers. I never approached the subject of a parser or UI or whatever; I refuse to even step foot into that cesspool. But thank you for assuming as much about me.

[Colorful]

snip

But can you honestly say you've memorized every classes animations for their ability? Sure, you could tell if a Ninja is using their Mudras, but that's a small part of their job. What of their rotation? Is your perception incredible enough to tell they're using armour crush instead of reapplying it with Huton (yes I've had people do that), that they're following their positional abilities as best as possible, especially in the case of Monk? Obviously in dungeons this stuff isn't required, and you can easily tell as most bosses are tank and spank with a few AoEs thrown in, but what of EX trials+?

Edit: I don't know why on Earth you'd take offense to that, but people take offense to literally everything on this forum so it's no surprise (and I bet someone would take offense to my saying that too). It's not meant to offend, I'm stating that why go to such lengths when there could be an alternative which is much, much simpler. As for being a obsessed with e-peen, I do try to push the highest numbers but it has nothing to do with e-peen, when I see someone doing more than myself I try to do better and push myself to get better at the game as a sense of accomplishment. It's not my responsibility to watch what other DPS are doing, it's my responsibility to push out as much DPS as I can, while performing mechanics correctly.

[tjw]

But can you honestly say you've mesmerized every classes animations for their ability? Sure, you could tell if a Ninja is using their Mudras, but that's a small part of their job. What of their rotation? Is your perception incredible enough to tell they're using armour crush instead of reapplying it with Huton (yes I've had people do that), that they're following their positional abilities as best as possible, especially in the case of Monk? Obviously in dungeons this stuff isn't required, and you can easily tell as most bosses are tank and spank with a few AoEs thrown in, but what of EX trials+?

Because when I speak of following a DPS' abilities, I mean every single auto-attack, action, and step they take. -rolls eyes-

I can say that I do recognise at least 90% of the abilities used in the game by every class and job. The only ones I'm not very confident to judge based on sight alone are MCH and MNK, but I recognise the sounds of most of their abilities.

Typically I will notice the difference for when NINs apply Mudras (distinctive sounds and animations) and Armour Crush (Huton buff mysteriously increases in timer length on their status bar). If I tab to the enemy and see three Rogue like debuffs on the enemy, I know the NIN is applying DoTs and Dancing Edge. Same with a MNK, I don't need to be 100% focused on them to see if they are using positionals, maybe because they're moving around the enemy and applying the abilities with the right sound effects.

Yes, I do notice these things in 8-man parties, trials and whatnot. It's how I approach my healer job, especially since I need to account for the positions of all party members on the field. I've had practice from 1.X up to now, so I can say that it's something close to muscle memory for me to notice the effects of other people. If you ask me to do it in 24-man raids, I won't be able to. That's way too much for me to keep track of all 24 members and animations flying out everywhere.

I don't know why on Earth you'd take offense to that, but people take offense to literally everything on this forum so it's no surprise (and I bet someone would take offense to my saying that too).

Could have likely been reading your message in a tone that you weren't considering. Taken in another way, your first sentence sounded very condescending, similar to a 'why bother doing anything past the minimum' jab by people in this community who refuse to improve themselves and see no reason to. Regardless, outside of my taken offensive to what was probably just a rhetorical question, my point still stands; there are ways to see how other people are doing right now. I understand as a healer it may be easier than a DPS to keep track of the other DPS in the party; however, since most people here advocate to improve their roles in DPS, I only said the way I go about improving my role as a healer to being a backseat driver (thank you Eye_Gore for this term).

So what exactly are you looking at, applying dots and making sure they're not just sitting there doing nothing? Yeah, that will definitely help a lot when a DPS check is being failed and definitely is identical to a parser in function to finding out who is performing poorly.

Maybe I need to make myself clearer from what angle I'm coming from...

1. I'm not approaching the subject of parsers here. I refuse to even come into the debate of it; my reply was SPECIFICALLY in regards to what a healer can do to see who is messing up with WHAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE NOW. In no way did I say it was similar to a parser figuring out who is doing 0.1 DPS lower than expected.
2. When it comes to fine details (to where we talk DPS numbers making the difference of finishing the encounter in 10 second rather than 20), of course I won't be able to tell you who needs to improve (maybe everyone!), especially if it comes to progression in RELEVANT CONTENT. When it comes to broad details like a DRG not using Chaos Thrust combo, a BLM not using Enochian/BRD not using WM, and other very noticeable flaws, I CAN see who's performing poorly. And guess where I generally see these people? DFs.
3. It's not that either someone does appallingly, or someone does flawlessly. I can see who does mediocre DPS, which can be fixed by improving their rotation with missing skills. I can see anyone who doesn't use buffs but knows their rotation fully.

I repeat; I'm not being anti-parser, or pro-parser. I'm merely explaining what I can do right NOW to address problems related to the party. If an in-game parser does come, good; I'll use it when things get iffy. If not, no problem; I'll merely continue what I'm doing right now. I understand what I do is not for everyone (heck, I didn't say I do it for every encounter; when I'm learning a fight, such as I am now in A3S, I generally pay greater attention to myself that I lessen my attention on other people), nor is it the only end-game healer playstyle out there, but it's how I approach my game.

[Colorful]

Because when I speak of following a DPS' abilities, I mean every single auto-attack, action, and step they take. -rolls eyes-

So what exactly are you looking at, applying dots and making sure they're not just sitting there doing nothing? Yeah, that will definitely help a lot when a DPS check is being failed and definitely is identical to a parser in function to finding out who is performing poorly.

Edit for your edit: Fair enough, I'll take that you're far more skilled than I am if you're able to do that. I struggle to watch other DPS while performing mechanics and my own rotation, but that does not invalidate a parser. I don't know the high-end healer playstyle of FFXIV, but if there's downtime I'd imagine you're able to keep track of everything, but a DPS that has the shortest (or close to the shortest) GCD, while weaving in OGCD abilities and mudra while trying to deal with the lag that comes with that, on top of performing mechanics it gets a little hazardous. It would be downright impossible in MMOs like WildStar and maybe even in WoW. But regardless of all that, my point was a parser would be a very simple way of going about it. Not only can you measure DPS, you can measure HPS, overhealing, aggro generation, damage taken from avoidable attacks, etc.

[Ryel]

Because when I speak of following a DPS' abilities, I mean every single auto-attack, action, and step they take. -rolls eyes-

I can say that I do recognize at least 90% of the abilities used in the game by every class and job. The only ones I'm not very confident to judge based on sight alone are MCH and MNK, but I recognise the sounds of most of their abilities.

Typically I will notice the difference for when NINs apply Mudras (distinctive sounds and animations) and Armour Crush (Huton buff mysteriously increases in timer length on their status bar). If I tab to the enemy and see three Rogue like debuffs on the enemy, I know the NIN is applying DoTs and Dancing Edge. Same with a MNK, I don't need to be 100% focused on them to see if they are using positionals, maybe because they're moving around the enemy and applying the abilities with the right sound effects.

Yes, I do notice these things in 8-man parties, trials and whatnot. It's how I approach my healer job, especially since I need to account for the positions of all party members on the field. I've had practice from 1.X up to now, so I can say that it's something close to muscle memory for me to notice the effects of other people. If you ask me to do it in 24-man raids, I won't be able to. That's way too much for me to keep track of all 24 members and animations flying out everywhere.

I won't question your ability, i will however question your accuracy and consistency of doing so.

Can you 100% with confidence say that you are able to spot without a doubt out of 4 DPS in an 8 man party which one isn't carrying their own weight in 100% of all cases where your party is in an encounter that has a DPS check? Especially in case where you have of multiples of the same types of DPS jobs? Additionally are you able to quantify and give feedback to each one of those individual DPS based on their jobs/classes/playstles as to what areas they may need to improve upon and where exactly the fault lies in their specific class rotations?

And all this mind you are able to with no negative repercussions to your own play, that is assuming that you are playing at the highest level capable for your class given that you are situationally aware enough to accurately and consistently gauge the performance of the 7 other players in party with you with zero margin for error.

As tone is not always apparent with text, this is a genuine question based on the comments you have made.

EDIT: This was added just as or slightly after i posted so i'll respond.

Maybe I need to make myself clearer from what angle I'm coming from...

1. I'm not approaching the subject of parsers here. I refuse to even come into the debate of it; my reply was SPECIFICALLY in regards to what a healer can do to see who is messing up with WHAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE NOW. In no way did I say it was similar to a parser figuring out who is doing 0.1 DPS lower than expected.

2. When it comes to fine details (to where we talk DPS numbers making the difference of finishing the encounter in 10 second rather than 20), of course I won't be able to tell you who needs to improve (maybe everyone!), especially if it comes to progression in RELEVANT CONTENT. When it comes to broad details like a DRG not using Chaos Thrust combo, a BLM not using Enochian/BRD not using WM, and other very noticeable flaws, I CAN see who's performing poorly. And guess where I generally see these people? DFs.

3. It's not that either someone does appallingly, or someone does flawlessly. I can see who does mediocre DPS, which can be fixed by improving their rotation with missing skills. I can see anyone who doesn't use buffs but knows their rotation fully.

I repeat; I'm not being anti-parser, or pro-parser. I'm merely explaining what I can do right NOW to address problems related to the party. If an in-game parser does come, good; I'll use it when things get iffy. If not, no problem; I'll merely continue what I'm doing right now. I understand what I do is not for everyone (heck, I didn't say I do it for every encounter; when I'm learning a fight, such as I am now in A3S, I generally pay greater attention to myself that I lessen my attention on other people), nor is it the only end-game healer playstyle out there, but it's how I approach my game.

Practicality and consistency are the two major things here.

Saying that sometimes you're able to spot which DPS may or may not be under-performing (with no accurate way to verify mind you) is all well and good until it matters, at which point you have zero way of providing any meaningful feedback or assessment. saying to the random DPS in ex roulette "are you sure you're doing your rotation? I didnt hear you pop armor crush" isn't really going to hold any water in any realistic scenario.

Let me make it clear that I'm not trying to jump on you here, while the ability to see and guesstimate these things is great, your comments don't lend much in the way of credibility to the subject at hand. due to the not so practical nature of a DPS basically needing someone else to keep an eye on them, and the lack of any meaningful consistency.

[tjw]

Can you 100% with confidence say that you are able to spot without a doubt out of 4 DPS in an 8 man party which one isn't carrying their own weight in 100% of all cases where your party is in an encounter that has a DPS check? Especially in case where you have of multiples of the same types of DPS jobs? Additionally are you able to quantify and give feedback to each one of those individual DPS based on their jobs/classes/playstles as to what areas they may need to improve upon and where exactly the fault lies in their specific class rotations?

I speak more in cases where the DPS is going slower than expected, which is when I will then speak up. An example would be in T10 of 2.X; we were often not meeting the DPS check for the second set of adds at first. When it continued, I noticed our SMN was not Bane-ing DoTs onto the other adds; I asked him if he was Bane-ing, and hey presto, next round when he used Bane, we cleared the DPS check. Another example would be a Brayflox I ran; the BLM was a fresh BLM, so they weren't very experienced. When it came to AoE pulls, he wasn't using Fire II or Flare effectively (I believe I saw his rotation as something similar to Fire > Fire II > Fire III > Fire > Fire II > Blizzard III > Freeze spam). I pointed out the better rotation (Fire III > Fire II until low MP > Flare > Convert > Fire III) and they instantly improved.

When it comes to multiple DPS (typical of DF trials), it comes down to a comparison level as well; for example, Bismarck NM with two DRGs; one was applying DoTs and using BotD, one was not. It's not 100% efficient (I don't think I ever said it was? -goes back to check previous answers-) but after a few runs and gauging the DPS, I can typically tell who is causing the wipes/not pulling their weight sufficiently. The bolded part is very important; if the encounter is cleared in an adequate time, I won't be as active in identifying flaws.

And all this mind you with no negative repercussions to your own play, that is assuming that you are playing at the highest level capable for your class given that you are situationally aware enough to accurately and consistently gauge the performance of the 7 other players in party with you with zero margin for error.

When it comes to most DF dungeons where minimal healing is required once I know the pace and environment, yes, it has minimal repercussion to my healing style, and I can gauge how others are performing; I generally get the overall vibe from the first couple pulls of how the DPS are, and then I start looking closer. If we're talking endgame raids in savage, no; I am currently learning A3S, and right now I'm trying to get myself comfortable before I start going beyond. I am doing that already in AS1 and AS2 however; there are a few downtime periods and spike moments where I can see who's not picking up their slack.

Saying that sometimes you're able to spot which DPS may or may not be under-performing (with no accurate way to verify mind you) is all well and good until it matters, at which point you have zero way of providing any meaningful feedback or assessment. saying to the random DPS in ex roulette "are you sure you're doing your rotation? I didnt hear you pop armor crush" isn't really going to hold any water in any realistic scenario.

You have to keep in mind that the most typical scenario of where I can take the backseat driver is in DF, namely dungeons and trials. I would assume that the topic branches not just within progression and relevant content, but across all contents to even guildhests (maybe not that low of a spectrum, but most dungeons). In your last example, I'll instead point out using the Mudras for additional DPS rather than for Huton. Also, it has to be below adequate performance for when I speak up; I have had runs where the feathers weren't being killed fast enough in Alwaysreap (Yes, the DPS were targetting them, though the BRD was not in WM and only using Heavy Shot).

Let me make it clear that I'm not trying to jump on you here, while the ability to see and guesstimate these things is great, your comments don't lend much in the way of credibility to the subject at hand. due to the not so practical nature of a DPS basically needing someone else to keep an eye on them, and the lack of any meaningful consistency.

It wasn't meant to be said to counter the subject at hand; I am neither for or against parsers. I have my own judgements on them, but my typical view is: make mine not your enemy, and I shall not make you mine enemy. Guesstimating will have mistakes; I will only speak up once I'm sure that the DPS is under-performing, usually with what I have observed. As long as I'm polite and offer tips, the DPS usually responds favourably and improved the next pull/round.

Your observations still come from things like watching cast bars (which not every ability has) or flashy animations, things like Bane and BotD are hard to miss generally, bane especially with it's large purple explosion. How what about DoTs? In the event of multiple (melee) jobs applying the same DoTs are you telling me you are aware the majority of the time which job is and isn't reapply DoTs consistently? Once again on jobs without cast bars.

Actually, I think I pointed this before; I also look at the status bars of enemies and players themselves. On the topic of melee; I will notice if a DRG isn't applying Heavy Thrust or CT/PB. Especially if I'm DPSing as well, and have the enemy targetted; movements of the DPS also play a part in confirming whether or not they're playing properly, as all melee have positionals. As you said, it's guesstimating, and I only speak once I know they aren't pulling enough weight (I can understand missing a PB every now and then due to DRG's timing with BotD, but there's a point I start questioning 'Why?')

As I've said, it's not for everyone. I've played most jobs/played with enough people with other jobs that I can pick up on these things. In high-tuned content such as Savage, I can only do so during a few downtimes and phases in A1S and A2S; currently, I am incapable of doing so in A3S because I'm still learning how to save my own ass while doing my own sufficient HPS and DPS.

[Ryel]

I speak more in cases where the DPS is going slower than expected, which is when I will then speak up. An example would be in T10 of 2.X; we were often not meeting the DPS check for the second set of adds at first. When it continued, I noticed our SMN was not Bane-ing DoTs onto the other adds; I asked him if he was Bane-ing, and hey presto, next round when he used Bane, we cleared the DPS check. Another example would be a Brayflox I ran; the BLM was a fresh BLM, so they weren't very experienced. When it came to AoE pulls, he wasn't using Fire II or Flare effectively (I believe I saw his rotation as something similar to Fire > Fire II > Fire III > Fire > Fire II > Blizzard III > Freeze spam). I pointed out the better rotation (Fire III > Fire II until low MP > Flare > Convert > Fire III) and they instantly improved.

When it comes to multiple DPS (typical of DF trials), it comes down to a comparison level as well; for example, Bismarck NM with two DRGs; one was applying DoTs and using BotD, one was not. It's not 100% efficient (I don't think I ever said it was? -goes back to check previous answers-) but after a few runs and gauging the DPS, I can typically tell who is causing the wipes/not pulling their weight sufficiently. The bolded part is very important; if the encounter is cleared in an adequate time, I won't be as active in identifying flaws.

Your observations still come from things like watching cast bars (which not every ability has) or flashy animations, things like Bane and BotD are hard to miss generally, bane especially with it's large purple explosion. How what about DoTs? In the event of multiple (melee) jobs applying the same DoTs are you telling me you are aware the majority of the time which job is and isn't reapply DoTs consistently? Once again on jobs without cast bars.

It's funny how the story seems to change from needing to be able to see DPS who are terribly below par at like 500-600 DPS in content that requires 1000+ and suddenly when people mention.

It hasn't?

From the beginning i've argued all points from casual DF to endgame, you're welcome to check my post history. However the person i'm responding to has made claims about their abilities of observation i'm merely asking about the fine details. I've also said from the beginning that i don't doubt their ability but i do doubt their consistency and yeah that does apply to 4 man content where 1 DPS out of 2 may be dragging much further behind the other.

Why does it seem like so many posters on the other side of this discussion keep trying to go for "Gotcha!" moments instead of following the actual conversation?

It wasn't meant to be said to counter the subject at hand; I am neither for or against parsers. I have my own judgements on them, but my typical view is: make mine not your enemy, and I shall not make you mine enemy. Guesstimating will have mistakes; I will only speak up once I'm sure that the DPS is under-performing, usually with what I have observed. As long as I'm polite and offer tips, the DPS usually responds favourably and improved the next pull/round.

That's fine i'm more impressed than anything if you're able to eyeball it half as well as you've been saying for the most part, like i said my posts from the beginning weren't attempting to have a go at you, I'm just genuinely interested in your perspective.

[Avidria]

That's just you then. I KNOW my healer jobs well enough that I CAN afford to pay attention outside of what I am doing and check other people's actions. I don't necessarily click on each person, but as a healer, I am seeing the field often enough that I can capture everyone's movements on the field.
...

As a dps, my job is to dps and to follow mechanics (and since I'm a bard, I'm also watching people's mana and tp and throwing out foe req if we've got mages). I'm watching the boss, the boss' cast bars, my own rotation, my buffs, and my cooldowns. I like to think I know my job as a bard pretty well, but I still don't have the time to worry about whether or not someone else is doing their rotation properly.
The only time I notice that they aren't is when A) things are dying unusually slowly or B) they do something that's obviously wrong (standing in AoE, spamming the same ability over and over, never using any cooldowns, etc.). I could probably get away with watching everyone's buffs and dots etc., but that's not my job and frankly, it shouldn't be.

If someone isn't doing their job, there should be an easier way to hold them accountable for that than to watch what they're doing on top of doing my own job.