Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[NFaelivrin]

I suspect the reason they've not just upped the multipliers (which, admittedly, would fix the problem at level 60) is due to level 50 sync. If PLD modifiers were brought in line with DRK and WAR, the latter would both have issues with threat with a PLD off tanking if they used their other abilities. To effectively manage this they would need to work either a scaling threat dependent on level (add a 50+ trait) or rework the abilities to give PLD its dps combos earlier.

This wouldn't be an issue if they hadn't refused to make new traits for the post-50 skills, alas.

[Xenosan]

I think a first re-look would be at Shield Swipe. They improved that WS in patch 3.0, but now that PLD has 3 combos, despite Swipe being buffed, it's actually less relevant to PLDs now than it was 2.x

I assume SE buffed Swipe at 3.0 launch as their way of compensating for this predicament, they foresaw this problem. But IMO the buff wasn't enough, because Swipe is still less relevant now than it was in 2.x. I could imagine it providing a medium duration buff on the PLD when hitting a target with it - like Heavy Thrust or Maim. But unlike Maim/Darkside helping pull DRK/WAR out from under their tank stances' Damage Reduction penalty, let the Swipe buff do the inverse, increasing WS enmity. Would make both stances more effective.

I can't really imagine FFXIV ever releasing a 2nd tank that has also has shield. So let shield be the sell.

But then again Captain America isn't usually people's favorite Avenger.

[Seku]

and then in 4.0 PLDs will get battle litany and everyone will want em, the cycle never ends it's like FFI with Chaos and Garland bro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6qPh1iBpYk

now if only they gave drk berserk so I could be a wanna be guts from berserk.........

[Brian_]

Divine Veil's CD is not "fair" for what it does. It's the PLD equivalent of Path and Deliriuim / Reprisal except it's usually just worse. Path and Delirium require a full combo and a target to be applied. Reprisal requires a proc. But, if those conditions are met, they have incredibly high up-time. DV in comparison doesn't require a target but still requires a trigger and is only sometimes a stronger shield. The biggest difference is DV has horrendous up-time and that's the direct result of its CD. The CD should be short enough to be used on each jump of AS1, each Splash / Cascade of AS3. Then, it might be utility that makes a consistent difference.

[Violette]

Divine Veil's CD is not "fair" for what it does. It's the PLD equivalent of Path and Deliriuim / Reprisal except it's usually just worse. Path and Delirium require a full combo and a target to be applied. Reprisal requires a proc. But, if those conditions are met, they have incredibly high up-time. DV in comparison doesn't require a target but still requires a trigger and is only sometimes a stronger shield. The biggest difference is DV has horrendous up-time and that's the direct result of its CD. The CD should be short enough to be used on each jump of AS1, each Splash / Cascade of AS3. Then, it might be utility that makes a consistent difference.

Pretty sure Rage of Halone is the PLD equivalent, and DV is closer to a better AOE stoneskin.

[Brian_]

No. You have to look at their effective usage in raid content. You apply Path to reduce large raid-wide AoE. You try to proc Reprisal ahead of large raid-wide AoE. You apply Delirium before raid-wide AoE because it's almost entirely magic damage. Outside of a few rare situations, you don't use RoH like that. Path, Delirium, and Reprisal reduce incoming raid-wide damage by a % and effectively increases the eHP of your party. Divine Veil increases your party's eHP by giving them a shield.

In the end, they all fill the same utility. They help your party survive huge AoEs.

[Brannigan]

Stuff like Cover was, sadly, an answer to the people in 1.0 who complained that they wanted iconic abilities and jobs in the game.

Cover was on the original gladiator. http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abilities/cover (iirc it had 100% uptime, lol) It's a skill that doesn't actually need its core function changed, it just needs to be stronger. If, for example
1) Shield Swipe was better and a core part of gameplay and
2) Cover provided 100% block rate against covered attacks OR Cover provided damage reduction against covered attacks


then Cover would be a great OT skill to use to reduce damage on the tank duo (essentially functioning as another defensive CD) and let the OT paladin get swipe procs. If covered damage ignored the paladin's debuffs that'd be even better, but that probably wouldn't happen.

Clemency should be more reliably castable as main tank. You give up less damage than as OT and gain more control over your own health bar. Spot healing is good utility and shouldn't be restricted by your stance. Even if it were just intended to be an OT skill, then, as Seku has said, paladin's ability to use clemency in Sword Oath is also too weak. The spell is too slow and breaks combos. Opportunity cost is too high. 2.0-2.5s cast with no combo breakage (didn't break combos in 1.23 wo ho ho) would be a significant increase in usefulness.

Divine Veil's cd is garbage for its effect. If it were like 1.0 Divine Veil then it would be worth the long cooldown - in 1.x, the buff was not consumed when you were healed and the regen would re-apply on every heal until the duration was over. It also affected the paladin. Also they cut Divine Veil's cooldown in half the next patch and added 100% block rate to it. A reapplying stoneskin to the whole party with the paladin included would certainly warrant a 2.5 minute cooldown. This one doesn't, and basically just serves to make the paladin jump through a bunch of hoops for what ends up being worse (or slightly better but far less frequent) party mitigation than the other two tanks.

There is one advantage to DV - it's a buff. That means you don't have to actually have a target (getting Reprisal onto Manipulator is a little rough). Still, not that great. Cool animation though.

Sorry for the longpost guys it's late.

[Duelle]

Even while OTing Clemency is still pretty bad. Your healers should have people healed up unless their new, new to the fight, horrible, or SE makes a fight revolving around PLD curing people, they won't.

I've had plenty of opportunities while off-tanking stuff like A4. Yes, it's normal mode since I don't have time nor the desire to raid savage, but the opportunities are there.

Think of this more along the lines of having to give up something to do something else. As a ret paladin in WoW I was spending Art of War procs on off-heals when needed (since said procs made Flash of Light instant cast). Here, instead of spending procs that could go to DPS spells (Exorcism) to off-heal, I'm giving up 3 seconds of DPS uptime and a chunk of MP. It's a trade that makes sense if you've played a hybrid before (hence my RDM comment).

DV's mitigation is nice, but is largely not needed more so since both WAR and DRK can reduce damage on a boss and from what I'm remembering a lot of raid damage is magical based which falls under DRK's int down.

I can think of several scenarios where Divine Veil's mitigation is a boon, and comparing it to a permanent damage reduction of boss damage is comparing apples to oranges. PLD's answer to Delirium and Storms Path is Rage of Halone. It's not a completely equal analogue (hence the issues we've been seeing as of late), but is one nevertheless.

Pretty sure Rage of Halone is the PLD equivalent, and DV is closer to a better AOE stoneskin.

This. Divine Veil only costs you time. Succor costs MP and Stoneskin II can't be used in combat. That's sort of where the balance is.

2) Cover provided 100% block rate against covered attacks OR Cover provided damage reduction against covered attacks

All you'd be doing at that point is turning it into another defensive cooldown.

Clemency should be more reliably castable as main tank. You give up less damage than as OT and gain more control over your own health bar. Spot healing is good utility and shouldn't be restricted by your stance. Even if it were just intended to be an OT skill, then, as Seku has said, paladin's ability to use clemency in Sword Oath is also too weak. The spell is too slow and breaks combos. Opportunity cost is too high. 2.0-2.5s cast with no combo breakage (didn't break combos in 1.23 wo ho ho) would be a significant increase in usefulness.

Read my comment on hybrid gameplay. Also the tank is too busy staying alive to be watching the HP pools of other people. This is taking me back to the idiocy in 1.0 where people were expecting the PLD tanking the boss to do part of the healing instead of the actual healers...

Also they cut Divine Veil's cooldown in half the next patch and added 100% block rate to it. A reapplying stoneskin to the whole party with the paladin included would certainly warrant a 2.5 minute cooldown.

That would be so insanely overpowered it wouldn't be funny. A renewable 1700/2000 HP AoE stoneskin with no relative MP costs other than a Cure I/Physic is not balanced. I suspect it'd also have a hand in trivializing raid damage, which is there to challenge healers.

[Freyyy]

snip

So basically, when I'm reading you I'm under the impression that you don't want your lackluster PLD job to be improved. Fine.

[Kydi]

Divine Veil is, in my opinion, a great idea, but clunkily executed. It would be interesting to see what would happen if it were completely re-thought though.

I've toyed with the the ability becoming more like deployment tactics. What if it took whatever buff the paladin has applied to itself and spread it to the party at half strength? It would then have some interesting support aspects - raid wide damage? Apply stoneskin/rampart to yourself and spread. Need dps? Pop fight or flight and spread.