Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[Duelle]

The only weakness is SE fault to make Tank and Healer DPS necessary for Enrage Timers.
That should be a No-Go. Enrage should be handled 100% through DPS of the DDs, that is their job. Our job is to tank and position the fight, not to deal max DPS.

Well, changing encounter design isn't the only thing that'll fix this. You'd need to adjust the three tanks to play within certain parameters and deal equal DPS to remove that factor out of the equation.

[Cheraa]

That's true. Even more if we see that a Raid has only space for 8 player.
If our Raids would be around 16 player, with 2 Tanks, than 200dps difference of tank jobs matters way less than with 8 players.

I think the concept of Tanks with good DPS and okay Defence (WAR / DRK) and with good Defence and okay DPS (PLD) can acually work, but only if the size of raids is big enough. As smaler as the Raids are and FF XIV raids are super small (8 man was back in DaoC a small group), DPS matters a lot, sadly.

[Freyyy]

I'll just toss this quote from another thread (the one called "Let's nerf WAR ") here because I think this guy is super right about how Paladin has been designed compared to the other two tanks.

With Warrior it's clear the devs actually had some design goals: build stacks, switch stances, (nearly) all abilities should be useful as MT or OT. Even their "you-can't-kill-me" move has a second function of preventing knockback. It even gets good cross class abilities. The only problem warrior has is a UI issue with FC and Inner Beast not occupying the same button. Even still, it's easy to think of natural extensions to its ability set for the next expansion (your next move doesn't consume wrath, this move's crits generate extra wrath, etc).

Dark Knight has similar design goals but is implemented a bit worse: build MP, use dark arts, maintain darkside. DRK can't use its defensive abilities to build MP as off tank, but it does have some pretty good synergy within its ability set (blood weapon + physical off GCDs, Dark Dance + Reprisal + Low Blow, Dark Dance + Dark Passenger). Dark Knight has issues, such as Grit's high MP cost, but the only real hole in its gameplay is that it can't mitigate physical attacks as frequently as a warrior or paladin.

Paladin has no thought put into it. Stuff like Cover was tossed in there because "of course FF paladins have cover" without any reason to actually use it in a fight. They started to actually develop some gameplay in 3.0 but the cast time and cooldown of Clemency and Divine Veil respectively are way off. Goring/RA don't add to the capabilities of the class but were obviously needed. Sheltron is the only ability we got that I think is 100% fine, but it doesn't cover the gaping holes in the class.

[Duelle]

I'll just toss this quote from another thread (the one called "Let's nerf WAR ") here because I think this guy is super right about how Paladin has been designed compared to the other two tanks.

Stuff like Cover was, sadly, an answer to the people in 1.0 who complained that they wanted iconic abilities and jobs in the game. This said, I did suggest a long time ago that Cover could be implemented like Vigilance from WoW.

As I've repeatedly said, Clemency is an off-tanking skill. It's hybrid off-healing with the appropriate trade-offs. Of course it's not going to be a sure thing while getting hit in the face by the boss; that's an intentional part of the design. It's also eerily similar to how I'd expect RDM off-healing to be implemented.

Divine Veil's cooldown is fair for what it does: mitigate raid damage. That said, this is also a 1.0 relic since it used to provide a HoT on people near you when you received heals, and I'm guessing they thought it was a good mechanic to use. The only issue I have is the cooldown, but knowing that the shielded amount is based on the PLD's, it would probably be too much to reduce the cooldown to something like 90 seconds.

[Seku]

Stuff like Cover was, sadly, an answer to the people in 1.0 who complained that they wanted iconic abilities and jobs in the game. This said, I did suggest a long time ago that Cover could be implemented like Vigilance from WoW.

As I've repeatedly said, Clemency is an off-tanking skill. It's hybrid off-healing with the appropriate trade-offs. Of course it's not going to be a sure thing while getting hit in the face by the boss; that's an intentional part of the design. It's also eerily similar to how I'd expect RDM off-healing to be implemented.

Divine Veil's cooldown is fair for what it does: mitigate raid damage. That said, this is also a 1.0 relic since it used to provide a HoT on people near you when you received heals, and I'm guessing they thought it was a good mechanic to use. The only issue I have is the cooldown, but knowing that the shielded amount is based on the PLD's, it would probably be too much to reduce the cooldown to something like 90 seconds.

I can agree to a upgrade to cover like that.

Even while OTing Clemency is still pretty bad. Your healers should have people healed up unless their new, new to the fight, horrible, or SE makes a fight revolving around PLD curing people, they won't.

DV's mitigation is nice, but is largely not needed more so since both WAR and DRK can reduce damage on a boss and from what I'm remembering a lot of raid damage is magical based which falls under DRK's int down.

The above points I just pointed is why I'm actually praying that SE actually gives PLD more utility. As a damage and hate buff wouldn't really get us very far and would just really make it to where PLD = physical fights and DRK = Magical fights.

But in conclusion, I get a gut feeling SE isn't going to do anything with PLD really for a long time and we'll be seeing DRK MT a majority of fights in top tier groups until 4.0....or basically PLD is the new DRG. No good raid utilitah.

[Freyyy]

But in conclusion, I get a gut feeling SE isn't going to do anything with PLD really for a long time and we'll be seeing DRK MT a majority of fights in top tier groups until 4.0....or basically PLD is the new DRG. No good raid utilitah.

and then in 4.0 PLDs will get battle litany and everyone will want em, the cycle never ends it's like FFI with Chaos and Garland bro

[Seku]

and then in 4.0 PLDs will get battle litany and everyone will want em, the cycle never ends it's like FFI with Chaos and Garland bro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6qPh1iBpYk

now if only they gave drk berserk so I could be a wanna be guts from berserk.........

[Duelle]

Even while OTing Clemency is still pretty bad. Your healers should have people healed up unless their new, new to the fight, horrible, or SE makes a fight revolving around PLD curing people, they won't.

I've had plenty of opportunities while off-tanking stuff like A4. Yes, it's normal mode since I don't have time nor the desire to raid savage, but the opportunities are there.

Think of this more along the lines of having to give up something to do something else. As a ret paladin in WoW I was spending Art of War procs on off-heals when needed (since said procs made Flash of Light instant cast). Here, instead of spending procs that could go to DPS spells (Exorcism) to off-heal, I'm giving up 3 seconds of DPS uptime and a chunk of MP. It's a trade that makes sense if you've played a hybrid before (hence my RDM comment).

DV's mitigation is nice, but is largely not needed more so since both WAR and DRK can reduce damage on a boss and from what I'm remembering a lot of raid damage is magical based which falls under DRK's int down.

I can think of several scenarios where Divine Veil's mitigation is a boon, and comparing it to a permanent damage reduction of boss damage is comparing apples to oranges. PLD's answer to Delirium and Storms Path is Rage of Halone. It's not a completely equal analogue (hence the issues we've been seeing as of late), but is one nevertheless.

Pretty sure Rage of Halone is the PLD equivalent, and DV is closer to a better AOE stoneskin.

This. Divine Veil only costs you time. Succor costs MP and Stoneskin II can't be used in combat. That's sort of where the balance is.

2) Cover provided 100% block rate against covered attacks OR Cover provided damage reduction against covered attacks

All you'd be doing at that point is turning it into another defensive cooldown.

Clemency should be more reliably castable as main tank. You give up less damage than as OT and gain more control over your own health bar. Spot healing is good utility and shouldn't be restricted by your stance. Even if it were just intended to be an OT skill, then, as Seku has said, paladin's ability to use clemency in Sword Oath is also too weak. The spell is too slow and breaks combos. Opportunity cost is too high. 2.0-2.5s cast with no combo breakage (didn't break combos in 1.23 wo ho ho) would be a significant increase in usefulness.

Read my comment on hybrid gameplay. Also the tank is too busy staying alive to be watching the HP pools of other people. This is taking me back to the idiocy in 1.0 where people were expecting the PLD tanking the boss to do part of the healing instead of the actual healers...

Also they cut Divine Veil's cooldown in half the next patch and added 100% block rate to it. A reapplying stoneskin to the whole party with the paladin included would certainly warrant a 2.5 minute cooldown.

That would be so insanely overpowered it wouldn't be funny. A renewable 1700/2000 HP AoE stoneskin with no relative MP costs other than a Cure I/Physic is not balanced. I suspect it'd also have a hand in trivializing raid damage, which is there to challenge healers.

[Freyyy]

snip

So basically, when I'm reading you I'm under the impression that you don't want your lackluster PLD job to be improved. Fine.

[Brannigan]

Also the tank is too busy staying alive to be watching the HP pools of other people. This is taking me back to the idiocy in 1.0 where people were expecting the PLD tanking the boss to do part of the healing instead of the actual healers...

"Solid rock on which the party's defense is founded." You have 30 seconds between Sheltrons where you have no control over whether you stay alive or not other than Clemency. Most of your defensive CDs are already spoken for in boss fights. If you're not raiding, you literally do not have to try to stay alive - your defense and shield will do that for you. Really, the reason not to Clemency isn't because you're focusing on staying alive, it's because you potentially lose so much damage. But even with slow Clemency right now it is your DUTY to watch party HP and save the other players if your healer is occupied. It's just overly difficult and requires a lot of communication because Clemency is so slow.

I seriously do not get this unwillingness to take on a little bit of extra work in order to increase your value to your party. The most fun I have had in Heavensward has been when first learning a couple of fights on paladin while my healers and DPS still aren't used to it. I get to do EVERYTHING - heal, DPS, tank, and mechanics. I ended up having to switch to dark knight in A3S/A4S (mostly because drk is OP in 3 and pld is awful in 4) which is boring in comparison even with all of its off GCDs and stuff because you have no way to help your party members other than just doing mechanics for them.