Lets nerf WAR :D

[Ragnvard]

This thread is sad to read though.

I have played all 3 tanks in HW a lot.

The "nerf warriors" cries pretty much only came out after the introduction of Alex savage.

Do Paladins not remember how we can use cover+HG to completely eliminate arguably the most dangerous phase in rav ex? To a degree where it trivialize the fight. Have we already forgotten how completely broken and overpowered sheltron is at eating physical bursts such as blinding blade?

DRKs are much loved in Alex: to a degree where it's almost as if the raid is designed for them. Dark mind allows DRKs to survive through all the dangerous bursts (A1S plasma, A3S tethers), while they do not have the protection of a shield in A2S, Blood Price allows a DRK to contribute a significant amount of AoE damage and is the king of AoE threat.

So at the end of the day, warriors really only have 3 things going for them:
i) Slightly higher dps than a DRK, and PLD - around 10% more?
ii) Incredible burst damage via Berserk (most notable in HP transfer on A3S)
iii) The ability to apply slashing debuff.

As time progresses, the dps checks in A3S become more and more lenient (through obtaining gear upgrades). The "niche" of the warrior will start to diminish. Some day in the future, with Echo and higher ilvl, I would much rather bring a paladin to A3S for example, due to their ability to spam shield bash on adds (with the longest stun in game to boot), and ability to tempered will/leap the pushback (holmgang works but has tight timings) - that is because dps will no longer be the barrier, but rather mechanics wise, other tanks will be a safer choice than a warrior.

A good warrior will need to learn when to pool stacks for inner beast, how to stance dance and play greedy. Alas, they still have some of the weakest cooldowns: foresight being only a mere ~7% reduction in physical damage (worse than awareness imo), bloodbath is "nice" esp coupled with berserk/convalescence, but is still on the weaker end of the spectrum.

If things are to be changed, then it will have to be something slightly more fundamental to HW: that is i) AF2 forbidding effective class swapping ii) the specialization of tanks where a DRK reign over magical bursts and PLD will always be trivialize physical bursts.

Unless you are gunning for a server first kill, bring the player, not the class. Tank balance is working as intended.

[kensatsu]

KinSlayer009: this is because many pld is wearing vita only accesories, to cry like baby because the dps is not high, and also maybe one Very Good pld is not equal to all the pld also

Ragnvard : this tread is sad to read because it bring only War haters, i don't consider everybody here is at A4S and are stuck because some tank here is playing the pld, maybe a very few people here is in this case... we have a pld in fc statics and we will end the raid with, even if it take more times.

[Seku]

DRKs are much loved in Alex: to a degree where it's almost as if the raid is designed for them. while they do not have the protection of a shield in A2S, Blood Price allows a DRK to contribute a significant amount of AoE damage and is the king of AoE threat.

So at the end of the day, warriors really only have 3 things going for them:
i) Slightly higher dps than a DRK, and PLD - around 10% more?
ii) Incredible burst damage via Berserk (most notable in HP transfer on A3S)
iii) The ability to apply slashing debuff.

As time progresses, the dps checks in A3S become more and more lenient (through obtaining gear upgrades). The "niche" of the warrior will start to diminish. Some day in the future, with Echo and higher ilvl, I would much rather bring a paladin to A3S for example, due to their ability to spam shield bash on adds (with the longest stun in game to boot), and ability to tempered will/leap the pushback (holmgang works but has tight timings) - that is because dps will no longer be the barrier, but rather mechanics wise, other tanks will be a safer choice than a warrior.

A good warrior will need to learn when to pool stacks for inner beast, how to stance dance and play greedy. Alas, they still have some of the weakest cooldowns: foresight being only a mere ~7% reduction in physical damage (worse than awareness imo), bloodbath is "nice" esp coupled with berserk/convalescence, but is still on the weaker end of the spectrum.

If things are to be changed, then it will have to be something slightly more fundamental to HW: that is i) AF2 forbidding effective class swapping ii) the specialization of tanks where a DRK reign over magical bursts and PLD will always be trivialize physical bursts.

Unless you are gunning for a server first kill, bring the player, not the class. Tank balance is working as intended.

Drk is actually in need of help too just like PLD. Only reasons their brought. Possible -10% damage reduction. INT down (magic busters onry) and is starting to be viewed as putting out the most damage in the MT spot while in tanking stance, which means jack %$&#^# when you're tanking in your offensive stance. Other than that their there for the LB bar.

Warrior has those 3 things going for them....while being marginally close or surpassing the other two tanks in their designed fields. The only thing WAR doesn't have is a heal / shield ability to protect it's party members, a pet, and combat resurrection.

I hope you're referring to a pick up group. Other wise this entire post of taking a PLD over any other tank currently makes no sense what so ever. You'd take the class that has skills for progression( Preventing F-up and allowing breathing rooms) after a entire group has already progressed and has gotten their gear? If anything as content moves forward Pld will be less favorable. More DPS = less mechanics. If you do not believe me get a full party of level 60's and go do any 2.0 content fight that the group knows and watch as entire phases are trivialized and the bosses face melt.

Uh...War's cool down's are actually on par or really close with PLD's. The only thing "weak" about them are their short duration which is made up for due to their low cool downs. Further more if a war is actually playing war right, some cool downs when paired with others(as some should be) allow for the war to play offensively while reducing healing required on them. The only problem with WAR is that their tanking stance requires a good healer to 100% take advantage of it and not over heal, which is often times nulled out by simply taking a SCH, which yet again means crap if you're tanking in your offensive stance.

[Disc]

Some day in the future, with Echo and higher ilvl, I would much rather bring a paladin to A3S for example, due to their ability to spam shield bash on adds (with the longest stun in game to boot), and ability to tempered will/leap the pushback (holmgang works but has tight timings) - that is because dps will no longer be the barrier, but rather mechanics wise, other tanks will be a safer choice than a warrior.

WAR will still reduce more total raid damage with Storm's Path while increasing raid damage tremendously with their own DPS & Storm's Eye. Killing slimes will only become easier as you get more gear or echo. Something is seriously wrong if you resort to shield bashing at that point. PLD will not see any love until their enmity is boosted or encounters shift focus towards extreme tank-busters & raid wide AoEs to slow us down.

Drk is actually in need of help too just like PLD.

You're a funny guy.

[Violette]

You're a funny guy.

He's not wrong, Dark's have a lot of glaring bugs in their move set that will become apparent when it comes to mitigating physical hits, but we can have that discussion in 3.2

[Disc]

He's not wrong, Dark's have a lot of glaring bugs in their move set that will become apparent when it comes to mitigating physical hits, but we can have that discussion in 3.2

You're ignoring the fact that our physical mitigation is more than enough for all content in game, our damage competes with & at times surpasses WAR, we don't need MNK, we excel at magic mitigation, and we have one of only two "damage down" debuffs in game. You have to be delusional to even imply that DRK is anywhere near a bad place.

[Syzygian]

If I absolutely had to pick something, I'd swap the debuffs on Storm's Path and Rage of Halone.

Brilliant, actually. If they did this and buffed Halone's potency + maybe a shorter recast on FoF and tweaks to their support utilities, the tanks would be pretty well balanced as far as what they bring to a group.

You're ignoring the fact that our physical mitigation is more than enough for all content in game, our damage competes with & at times surpasses WAR, we don't need MNK, we excel at magic mitigation, and we have one of only two "damage down" debuffs in game. You have to be delusional to even imply that DRK is anywhere near a bad place.

100% this. It still blows me away how many people haven't figured out how to play this job right, and when they misuse its tools they're considered "bugs".

[Ragnvard]

WAR will still reduce more total raid damage with Storm's Path while increasing raid damage tremendously with their own DPS & Storm's Eye. Killing slimes will only become easier as you get more gear or echo. Something is seriously wrong if you resort to shield bashing at that point. PLD will not see any love until their enmity is boosted or encounters shift focus towards extreme tank-busters & raid wide AoEs to slow us down.

You're a funny guy.

Right now DRK's dmg debuff is rather a pain to use and can't be kept up 100%. Knowing SE, most likely they will either significantly boost the duration or take off the parry requirement. In fact SE prob didn't want DRK to have both dmg reduction AND -int debuff up at all times since that will be almost far too powerful (since raid damage traditionally speaking is mostly magical).

Ofc, there are also physical nukes, A1S' dread prey is an example. A Pld's RoH debuff reduces that amount, and they can also just cover a person for easy healing.

Yes, slimes will become easier to kill with gear and echo, but player skills is another matter - why do people still wipe in t9 even with full 120 gear? As a paladin you can do something about all the "shitty situations".

@Ragnvard Im not even going to begin to delve into how incredibly ignorant brining a PLD over WAR for speed runs and farming would be, but the fact that you think that the tank balance is working as intended is clear proof you have no idea what balance is.

On one hand we have a tank which does: tremendous burst damage, contributes meaningful DPS, has invaluable raid utility, and has a strong defensive kit that not only allows them to effectively tank every encounter but allows them to cover their DPS stance with CDs.

On the other hand we have a tank that: Contributes almost nothing to DPS while tanking, has CDs that are borderline useless (Clemency, Divine Veil, Tempered Will), offers no meaningful raid utility, is generally considered a hinderence to raids, and is loaded with clunk.

So we have one tank which is a raid necessity and guarenteed a spot that has arguably no downsides and another tank that really brings nothing to the table.

Yeah bro. That's balanced.

Speed runs? I am very familiar with them, just 2 months ago I was farming many ravanas on my pld, 2 healers (with scholar mostly dpsing), 1 tank, 5 dps. I have done it on all 3 tanks and also my scholar. Pld need less healing = more dps from healers. Also, please do not compare a warrior who tanks in full slaying+deliverance with a pld who tanks in shield oath in full fending/half fending. The DPS difference is really less than what people think. Not to mention there is still DRK in the equation who still does very good damage while in grit (and can drop grit for every blood weapon CD). DRKs imo are the undervalued tank in the DPS department.

As for cooldowns?
Foresight (~7% physical) vs Rampart (20% everything)
Bloodbath vs Convalescence
Vengeance vs Sentinel
Thrill for battle vs Bulwark
Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground

Pretty much with the entire ARR kit, pretty much pld has the superior set of cooldowns, maybe with the exception of Thrill for Battle allow the warrior to self heal.
------------------------
Equilibrium vs Clemency/Divine Veil
Raw Intuition vs Sheltron

Equilibrium I agree is better. It is not as if Clemency/Veil are useless (Veil is actually a lot stronger than what people give it credits for but take some coordination to use). RI allows a warrior to parry a series of hits (and is often used as a dps CD), but sheltron will allow a pld to pretty much block every single physical burst attack (think flatten/blind blade, etc) - how completely broken is that lol?

[NFaelivrin]

You're a funny guy.

...For you.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

@Ragnvard Im not even going to begin to delve into how incredibly ignorant brining a PLD over WAR for speed runs and farming would be, but the fact that you think that the tank balance is working as intended is clear proof you have no idea what balance is.

On one hand we have a tank which does: tremendous burst damage, contributes meaningful DPS, has invaluable raid utility, and has a strong defensive kit that not only allows them to effectively tank every encounter but allows them to cover their DPS stance with CDs.

On the other hand we have a tank that: Contributes almost nothing to DPS while tanking, has CDs that are borderline useless (Clemency, Divine Veil, Tempered Will), offers no meaningful raid utility, is generally considered a hinderence to raids, and is loaded with clunk.

So we have one tank which is a raid necessity and guarenteed a spot that has arguably no downsides and another tank that really brings nothing to the table.

Yeah bro. That's balanced.