DEV REQUEST: Remove cast bars to MCH & BRD

[Akuryu]

In a interview a while back Yoshi-p discussed the reason behind the cast bar was to prevent BRD and MCH from having both High Mobility and High Damage at the same time. It was the exchange for higher damage being MCH and BRD mobility but of course people are not happy about it for different reasons but mostly for losing their high mobility while some were just mad they can't have both high mobility and high damage.

Players have ask for higher damage for BRD but they never ask the question "What will be the price for that higher damage?"

The thing is, when compared to other DPS, Bards don't really do that much more now than they did pre 3.0. Depending on the fight, a good Bard will be 100-200 dps behind equally skilled BLMs, SMNs, MNKs, DRGs, etc. That's pretty much the exact same difference they had pre-3.0.

So it's not a situation of "higher damage - lower mobility." It's more like "same-ish damage - lower mobility." You still do less damage than everyone else, but you have less mobility and have to work harder now, all to still be in last place.

[AzraelX]

The thing is, when compared to other DPS, Bards don't really do that much more now than they did pre 3.0. Depending on the fight, a good Bard will be 100-200 dps behind equally skilled BLMs, SMNs, MNKs, DRGs, etc. That's pretty much the exact same difference they had pre-3.0.

So it's not a situation of "higher damage - lower mobility." It's more like "same-ish damage - lower mobility." You still do less damage than everyone else, but you have less mobility and have to work harder now, all to still be in last place.

Amen- thank you for posting some facts.
I find it hard to Believe that thee is NO WAY to remove cast times+ auto attacks+ decrease potency = same damage as we do now & retained flavor/ play style of the job

[Velthice]

The thing is, when compared to other DPS, Bards don't really do that much more now than they did pre 3.0. Depending on the fight, a good Bard will be 100-200 dps behind equally skilled BLMs, SMNs, MNKs, DRGs, etc. That's pretty much the exact same difference they had pre-3.0.

That's not how math works though, it's not the same, it's a huge increase comparatively. In 2.x a bard being 200 dps behind a monk doing 600 would mean that they're doing around 33% less damage. But now in 3.0 a bard being 200 dps behind a monk doing 1200 would only be 17% behind. And honestly the numbers are usually closer than that. A bard would have to be doing 800 dps (400 dps behind the monk) to be in the same place.

The argument that comparatively bard is in the same place is just flat out wrong. Bard saw a major increase in its dps potential and honestly it seems balanced pretty perfectly for the damage the devs seem to want it to do. It can easily come in the middle of the pack, and when conditions are right (like A1S) take the top spot with no problem.

[Rikkustrife]

That's not how math works though, it's not the same, it's a huge increase comparatively. In 2.x a bard being 200 dps behind a monk doing 600 would mean that they're doing around 33% less damage. But now in 3.0 a bard being 200 dps behind a monk doing 1200 would only be 17% behind. And honestly the numbers are usually closer than that. A bard would have to be doing 800 dps (400 dps behind the monk) to be in the same place.

The argument that comparatively bard is in the same place is just flat out wrong. Bard saw a major increase in its dps potential and honestly it seems balanced pretty perfectly for the damage the devs seem to want it to do. It can easily come in the middle of the pack, and when conditions are right (like A1S) take the top spot with no problem.

some bards were doing around 500-550 dps pre-3.0 so their dps has not changed much proportionately

[AskaRay]

some bards were doing around 500-550 dps pre-3.0 so their dps has not changed much proportionately

That's not how math works though, it's not the same, it's a huge increase comparatively. In 2.x a bard being 200 dps behind a monk doing 600 would mean that they're doing around 33% less damage.

600(monk) - 200 = 400(bard). So um..yes it still has.
If an ilvl200 BRD is doing under a thousand DPS they're probably not doing something right.

[Gamer3427]

As a MCH main, please don't remove the casting system of GB. You can screw around with BRD's WM all you want, but don't mess with how GB works. I feel far more active when I'm letting that brief cast bar fill up than I do when I'm just standing there waiting for my GC skills to reset between attacks, particularly when all my OGC skills are resetting. I get that some people want the "extra mobility" in fights, but frankly speaking, it's almost completely worthless unless you're circle straffing bosses constantly, as at most you might miss out on one attack in your chain when dodging an AoE. Especially on MCH, you can fill that space with far more OCG skills than any caster has, or with a cross classed Feint if you don't have any ammo up that would be wasted, resulting in practically no DPS loss what-so-ever......

Again, though. If you want to satisfy all the BRDs who had their play style change after so long, then go for it. MCHs though were designed with the cast times of GB in mind, and should certainly stay that way. If BRD does get changed off of the WM system, while MCH stays the same, then at the very least we can stop all these people arguing that "they're the same class".......

[Daralii]

Isn't it a DPS decrease to have GB/WM up unless you're applying DoTs, hot shot/straight shot, or their OGCD skills are off cooldown?

[Azazua_azura]

I'm sorry to be picky, but.......... How many video games, and real archery experience do you guys have?
I had a lil bit of archer in summer camp. (but my uncoordinatedness made it hard for mne to aim and release well) I also played a ton of video games with archers, rangers and any bow type. (zelda, elder scrolls, ff11 WoW Assassin creed games, thief, tomb raider) and bows/guns have 2 functions weaker rapid fire (mobil fighting with fast shots) and more focused charged shot (more standing in 1 spot and charging your attacks to hit hardere) Bard only ever did the rapid fire which is dull after the novelty wares off about shooting and moving infact all jobs and move and hit so it not really a big deal.

SE didn't do "bow mage" infact only bow mage i know of is dragons dogma mystiic archer (fun class actually) all they did was add a charge timer stance for more focused shots that deal more damage. which is my personal fav imo. I love playing a bow user standing far off and letting out hard hitting shots.

I think you guys are being a bit silly in this "cast bar" hate. I'm happy they added varity to bard rapid fire only was dull.

[LunaHoshino]

Honestly, WM doesn't bother me. It took a bit of adjusting at first, but I was never one of those BRDs who ran all over the place during fights to begin with, so it wasn't a huge change for me. It's easy enough to toggle it on/off when the situation calls for it, especially now that they adjusted the timing of the recast. And being able to reset my DoTs with Iron Jaws instead of reapplying them individually? Yes please.

[Lemuria]

While I'm in the camp which absolutely hates Wanderer's Minuet, I don't see it changing any time soon.

At first I assumed they had added WM in order to make us equal to other DPS jobs in terms of raw damage. Then I actually did some testing and found it came up horribly short. The main reason was that the small damage bonus didn't make up for the loss of auto attacks. They later gave it an extra 10% damage bonus and then it just slightly pipped ahead of the auto-attack damage.

The fact is though, it's not a major DPS increase on its own. The DPS gain really comes from the unique weaponskills which follow. Being able to reset both DoT's with a single shot is pretty handy, but both the Sidewinder and Empyreal Arrow skills are on longer recasts so they're not nearly as amazing as they probably could have been.

But the REAL burning problem I have with Minuet is weaving. No, not the crafting, but weaving Off-GCD skills between your attacks. Due to the cast times, your window of opportunity has shortened greatly, and it becomes horribly detrimental to maintaining DPS. Anyone who's played as a Black Mage understands how bothersome it is to use abilities since they have to be used outside of cast times. The upside with BLM at least is they hit hard enough to compensate. Bard does not.

So, you're essentially losing potential DPS when you try weaving abilities in with your weaponskills while Minuet is up. Many abilities take slightly longer than the remaining GCD left after your 'cast', and it adds up over time. It also makes the job feel rather clunky and it loses it's polished flow.

With all this said though, I can't see them changing it any time soon. I know a LOT of bards who quit the job after the updates, and it's put me off continuing with the class myself for the meantime. Still, it's probably here to stay. Might as well get used to it.