How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

[whiskeybravo]

I can't think of many/any situations where I would recommend someone wear the 200 eso boots when they are holding the 210 gordian ones. The strength and vitality gain alone makes the gordian a better option 9 times out of 10, with the 1 outstanding circumstance being when that is the ONLY WAY for you to make up the 12 accuracy you need to make cap.

Ah, I read the comment as his progression build, didn't really specify if that all the gear he had or what he was trying for. I mean I'd wear the boots if they dropped but I'd rather the Eso boots especially if my det is sitting at 297 or whatever it was. 100 det for 100 skill speed seems like a reasonable trade to me :P

Plus, I forget RNGesus likes some of us more than others. Almost 2 months of clears and all I've got is ring and belt >.<

[Orlandeu]

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RNZB

This is my current setup. I can get a Gobdip from pages next week and upgrade my weapon to get more crit/ss or hope for a spear to drop which would give me Det in exchange for some crit, and skillspeed that I can afford to lose. Either way, I can use both weapons. But I'm leaning towards the Brionac as Determination doesn't quite appeal to me like it used to.

[JackFross]

You seem to be confident that it is, and that's valuable information for me; how so exactly? I would be intrigued to know how I should value Skill Speed and in what context.

A few reasons. 600 SS is tight in a lot of places where 620+ becomes smooth. The first phase of A3 Savage is ~55-56 seconds long. Assuming maximum uptime, that is 23-24 GCDs before he goes invulnerable. In my experience, with 628-ish SS (plus food) and Selene buff on the pull, I manage to hit 23, with 24 being Chaos Thrust - if I hit that, it will not activate (but will proc a 4th hit). Without Selene, as I've run it before, I get 22 gcds (though I also had lower SS at the time).

I'm not saying this SS is the breakpoint for that particular phase, but squeezing in an entire extra GCD during phases in the content that matters (Alexander Savage) is more meaningful than potentially having each of your hits do 1-2% more, at best. Assuming the DET tradeoff gives me +2% on all of those 22 GCDs, I gain +44% of a GCD (sort of, but not really) from what I would have with the lower skill speed, until you factor in that I actually hit 100% of my next GCD, which is nearly twice as potent an increase. Faster hits is also more beneficial on Phase 3; a bit more DET isn't gonna make or break an add being killed before it hits the wall, but an extra GCD COULD make that difference.

SS is tricky to measure because of all of these situational cases (which are very prevalent in Alexander Savage) that make it add a hefty sum over what you'd get with an equivalent bump to Determination or Crit Hit Rate.


The point I was trying to get to is that math can only get you so far when looking at these numbers. All that you're seeing is flat dps on a dummy. That number - honestly - means almost nothing in actual raid content. I gained nearly 30 points of Strength (according to the weights in this thread) between my A3S set from Monday and the one I used last night. My DPS was approximately the same in P1 and 2, with things just being a bit more consistent at 1400 now instead of sometimes flubbing to 1350 for the first phase (when I make no mistakes) and almost always around 1250-1300 at end of hands (with copious mistakes because I suck at that phase still). That was a gain of 30 strength. I gained ~30-40 consistent DPS due to the gain. You're looking at values around ~2-3 and saying that these will produce swings of 60, which is patently untrue in practice.

I like numbers as much as the next guy - I majored in math in uni. But at a certain point you need to stop putting so much stock in Mathematics™ and start realizing that Science™ is what matters.*

(Mathematics = crunching numbers to find marginal best gear)
(Science = get out in the field and actually test things)

That being said, this consideration was purposed solely to investigate flat hitting power in the comparison between Crit and Determination, which finds that every point of Crit is worth at least two points of DET for the purposes of DRG BiS. When comparing FFXIVGuild's configuration against the other two, I thus found that the flat hitting power of the former is significantly superior despite its Skill Speed advantage against both, which I thought was important. If we use 1500 as the baseline, the ~4.4% differential can lead to a 66 DPS increase.

Still not sure what set you're referring to, by the way. If it's literally the same as the set with 900 crit / 650 ss that's in the OP except swapped wrists, I'll fight you to the death that 700 accuracy is a worthwhile sacrifice to make for the terribly tiny gains you're considering if 30 crit actually DOES beat out 29 det and 44 ss (which I still believe it doesn't come close). There's multiple ways to boost damage output from that set in similarly marginal ways. Once you're 210, as long as you're within like 5 of the ~best in slot~ nobody is gonna notice, as long as you play your class well.

Ah, I read the comment as his progression build, didn't really specify if that all the gear he had or what he was trying for. I mean I'd wear the boots if they dropped but I'd rather the Eso boots especially if my det is sitting at 297 or whatever it was. 100 det for 100 skill speed seems like a reasonable trade to me :P

Plus, I forget RNGesus likes some of us more than others. Almost 2 months of clears and all I've got is ring and belt >.<

Yeah, the important bit was he's using it to clear A3, so no twines yet. Plus, having 210 gordian boots and using your first Twine on the eso boots is super silly when your 200 chest and pants are begging and pleading to give you +8 strength a piece ignoring secondaries. c:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RNZB

This is my current setup. I can get a Gobdip from pages next week and upgrade my weapon to get more crit/ss or hope for a spear to drop which would give me Det in exchange for some crit, and skillspeed that I can afford to lose. Either way, I can use both weapons. But I'm leaning towards the Brionac as Determination doesn't quite appeal to me like it used to.

I mean, personally, I would go for the Brionac, too, and try and nab an eso wrist and eso hat. ;p But that's just because those are the only pieces you are away from the bis gear I'm aiming for, so I'm really really biased and you probably shouldn't listen to me:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RNPR

[Thendiel]

I did some math and in-field testing on the best in slot builds provided at the bottom of the original guide and have concluded, based on the (perhaps outdated?) provided Dragoon damage models, that Dervy's Best-in-Slot configurations is almost certainly not optimal.

To perform the comparison, I checked FFXIVGuild's provided BiS gear and found that the skill speed difference and accuracy differences were negligible (2 Skill Speed and 45 Accuracy in favor of FFXIVGuild's build). The big difference is in 116 CRIT vs 156 DET, and the difference based on the given CRIT and DET values comes out to ~4.4% extra damage in favor CRIT, which indicates to me that CRIT is grossly more powerful than DET point for point.

This also leads me to believe that Ariyala's build also cannot be BiS as it is down Crit and Skill Speed for DET (61 Crit and 27 Skill Speed vs 126 DET). I performed the same comparison with FFXIVGuild's BiS slot, while making the assumption the Skill Speed difference of 27 would not affect DPS (I highly doubt that). The difference finds that even ignoring Skill Speed, the FFXIVGuild BiS build deals ~2.1% more damage based on the current model.

Jack's build is one that I can't decide on. The difference is 30 Crit vs 29 DET and 44 Skill Speed (solely the Gordian Wristband of Slaying vs the Fabled Bracelet of Slaying). Of course the Crit beats out the DET but I am not sure on the Skill Speed. In any case, of the listed BiS load outs, Jack's is the best, with the exception of the Gordian Wristband being potentially interchangeable with the Fabled Bracelet.

Here is Dervy's reply:

DPS factors 1.03 party buff.

1. FFXIVGuid.com "BiS" set: http://www.ffxivguild.com/ffxiv-drag...&ct=clnk&gl=uk / http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RJ5D

WD: 76 STR: 1079 ACC: 700 CRT: 930 DET: 328 SS: 606 Weight: 1721.240 DPS: 1508.56835902

2. Auirily's "BiS": http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RL7Z

WD: 76 STR: 1079 ACC: 656 CRT: 869 DET: 454 *SS: 579 Weight: 1726.210 DPS: 1514.57267975

3. Jacks 650 SS: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RM4U

WD: 76 STR: 1079 ACC: 656 CRT: 869 DET: 454 SS: 579 Weight: 1724.852 DPS: 1514.01090884

4. My "Balanced" Set: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RLTG

WD: 76 STR: 1079 ACC: 655 CRT: 814 DET: 484 SS: 604 Weight: 1723.970 DPS: 1511.55580904

FFXIVGuild is the worst of the bunch. Not only that Strident. You can just use the stat-weights to get a rough estimation of the value of this 116 CRT vs 154 DET. 116 * 0.162 = 18.792 156 * 0.139 = 21.684 DET alone holds more stat-weight than Crit.

And no, Crit isn't x2 the value of Determination. Not even close. The problem is that you're calculating it one stat vs one stat. It doesn't work like that. Determination and Critical Hit Rating, although linear, scale from different base values and when you're calculating DPS of a set, you don't base it off 1 stat vs 1 stat. You compare the entire set together.
Not only that, I have a the biggest feeling you're doing something like (1 + 1.58 * 18.4%) to get the multiplier of CRT on damage. That's incorrect. You always do Critical Damage -1. Why? Because 1+ is a value used to convert the percentage, or, our coefficient, into a whole number value we can multiply with. Not only that. For arguments sake, let's assume we have a Critical Multiplier of 1.5, and a Critical Hit Rating of 20%:

Doing 1+1.5*0.2 = 1.3... No. We do not have a Critical Factor of 1.3. We have a 20% chance of getting that 1.5 damage boost. Our Critical Factor would be much lower. Using an expression like this gives the end result a multiplier of 2.5 if you had 100% Critical Hit Chance, which isn't the case. This isn't Diablo 3. We're not adding an additional 150% onto our base Critical Damage, which is 100%.

We should be doing 1+0.5*0.2 = 1.1

That, is most probably where you're getting your "Crit is 4% better!" Errors from. So if we compare my set and FFXIVGuilds set:

FFXIV Guild DPS contribution:
((930-354) / (858 * 5) + 0.05 = 0.184266
((930-354) / (858 * 5) + 0.45 = 0.584265734
(1 + 0.584265734 * 0.184266) = 1.107660155
(1 + 328/ 7290) = 1.0449931
1.107660155 * 1.0449931 = *1.157497264 Multiplier on WS Damage, or a 1.57% contribution to your base damage.

My sets DPS contribution:
((814-354) / (858 * 5) + 0.05 = 0.15722
((814-354) / (858 * 5) + 0.45 = 0.55723
(1 + 0.584265734* 0.184266) = 1.087610492
(1+ 484 / 7290) = 1.066392318
1.066392318 * 1.087610492 = *1.159819474 Multiplier on WS damage., or a 1.598% contribution to your base damage.

My Set is better by 0.028%.

[whiskeybravo]

2. Auirily's "BiS": http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RL7Z

WD: 76 STR: 1079 ACC: 656 CRT: 869 DET: 454 *SS: 579 Weight: 1726.210 DPS: 1514.57267975

3. Jacks 650 SS: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RM4U

WD: 76 STR: 1079 ACC: 656 CRT: 869 DET: 454 SS: 579 Weight: 1724.852 DPS: 1514.01090884

Huh? They have the same stats, how come dif weights?

Jack 656 Acc 900 crit 357 Det 650 SkSp

[Thendiel]

I think that was just a typo on Dervy's part. The linked Ariyala's sets have different stats, so I assume his actual calculations were based on the Ariyala's values.

[LiquidSwordz]

Aren't there technically 2 BiS sets depending on the weapon you have? Eso weapon = less gear with SS and Gordian weapon = more gear with SS. Once I hit my recast of 2.39/2.40 and meet accuracy for AS4, wouldn't you just try and stack det/crit?

[Sleigh]

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RNZB

This is my current setup. I can get a Gobdip from pages next week and upgrade my weapon to get more crit/ss or hope for a spear to drop which would give me Det in exchange for some crit, and skillspeed that I can afford to lose. Either way, I can use both weapons. But I'm leaning towards the Brionac as Determination doesn't quite appeal to me like it used to.

If I were you I would just ask your raid leader to give you the Gobdip next week, I'm pretty sure he'll give it to you. No need to spend pages on it.

[whiskeybravo]

I'd like to see actual parse differences between high crit build vs a high det build. If you had all the pieces a 700+ det set is definitely possible. Seems to me the only way to really settle the crit vs det debate.

[LiquidSwordz]

Even though the value of Det decreased this expansion, it is still highly valuable IMO. Crit is better yes when you crit, but when you are not with such low det I feel dps is just gonna go downhill a lot. I think you need a good mix of both. Still, it all comes down to the player and skill in savage.