Lets nerf WAR :D

[Airswimmer]

WAR TP usage in almost all scenarios is notably lower due to stack abilities. Name one physical DPS with the same TP sustainability.

It's comparable to DRG and, to some extent, MNK. No. It's not exactly the same, but the difference is negligible. You're also ignoring the fact that Equilibrium doesn't only restore TP, so by using it for TP restore you're giving up a defensive cooldown.

this is one of the SOFTEST nerfs WAR can receive

It really isn't. Did you even play WAR in Turn 4 during 2.0/2.1?

'WAR is better than X at a Y' by design, fine, read my posts I said make it worse in the areas it is not supposed to be better to justify this. However this is false, pre heavensward interviews and live letters said this was supposed to be a DRK strength. Also, there is a limit to things you can say WAR is supposed to be better at by design, you also HAVE to accept some weakness. Which brings us back to my original post.

And what exactly is WAR better at that they need to be worse at? Don't say TP regen.

Pre-Heavensward interviews and Live Letters also said Heavensward would be a unique and exciting departure from what was previously in the game, and said that crafting/gathering would be more "casual friendly".

WAR has, by ability design, been the more damage focused tank since 2.0.

Blood price meet temporary insanity, unless we are balancing based around tone farming again.

You do know A2/A2S exist, right?

Even if mobs did hit, as I said already this is a DRK strength by design, not WAR not hard to find Yoshi saying, yet WAR is still better.

I've never seen anything said by Yoshi to suggest this, nor is Yoshi a class designer. That should be evident by his "suggestions" on how to use Ley Lines during the anniversary Live Letter.

The stock argument of 'we are better at x because SE wants us to be' works against you here. Conversely I would ask for evidence of SE explicitly stating WAR was supposed to be top AoE dps, and that was part of the fundamental design.

The evidence is how the class is designed. WAR has the strongest AoE enmity generation skill, and how Decimate is by design, which no other class has an equivalent, clearly caters them towards strong AoE DPS.
Despite all this, DRK is still only ~5% behind the WAR in encounters like A2S.

By the way, your WAR is only 52. You haven't even gotten Equilibrium yet alone used it in anything serious.

[MeeYow]

It's comparable to DRG and, to some extent, MNK. No. It's not exactly the same, but the difference is negligible. You're also ignoring the fact that Equilibrium doesn't only restore TP, so by using it for TP restore you're giving up a defensive cooldown.



It really isn't. Did you even play WAR in Turn 4 during 2.0/2.1?



And what exactly is WAR better at that they need to be worse at? Don't say TP regen.

Pre-Heavensward interviews and Live Letters also said Heavensward would be a unique and exciting departure from what was previously in the game, and said that crafting/gathering would be more "casual friendly".

WAR has, by ability design, been the more damage focused tank since 2.0.



You do know A2/A2S exist, right?



I've never seen anything said by Yoshi to suggest this, nor is Yoshi a class designer. That should be evident by his "suggestions" on how to use Ley Lines during the anniversary Live Letter.



The evidence is how the class is designed. WAR has the strongest AoE enmity generation skill, and how Decimate is by design, which no other class has an equivalent, clearly caters them towards strong AoE DPS.
Despite all this, DRK is still only ~5% behind the WAR in encounters like A2S.

By the way, your WAR is only 52. You haven't even gotten Equilibrium yet alone used it in anything serious.

Possibly DRG, serious MNKs use forbidden chakra. The cure provided by tank Eq is a very small price so I left it out, but yes it is there.

You might want to look up what temporary insanity is before you talk about A2, I will do the work for you, it is the buggy move that stuns all the mob packs - preventing them from triggering blood price. Do you raid savage?

For the Third time: what about PLD? Not a word. At least say you think that is how it is supposed to be.

Current eventuality is not explicit evidence of intent. Let me clarify: Explicit statements by SE please. With regards to not seeing discussion of DRK, summaries are available on these forums.

Single and AoE DPS have always been two different games, that doesnt require too much discussing, SMN does all the talking for that right now.) WAR was always a good single target job, AoE it was OK, better than PLD but now it has run away with itself.

Yes it is a shame my WAR is 52 and currently my DRK is only full level On an alt account, why I put career omnirtanker rather than current, but I static with one and understand it very well through constant discussion with them. How is your PLD, do you tank with one? Is it safe to assume you understand the other side of the argument right now?

Good argument though, you have no idea how often I XIVPads peoples characters while they are ranting about how X is fine and find they are missing half their cross class abilities. Sadly I see you don't have PLD either which is the real hot potato.

Also I was in one of the first 5-10 groups in the world through T1-4 (don't know exactly because people formally didn't keep track as much) with Legacy, clearing it on BLM WAR PLD and BRD in consecutive weeks, special place in my heart that turn, dropped because I began a PhD which was a big RL time sink and transferred to EU when server changes were promised. Hence he current job spread, how early did you do it? (That derail BTW)

[RiisWolf]

Nerfing warriors fixes nothing.

Paladin have been and still are horribly designed. Weakest threat modifiers paired with weakest damage= WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN!!! Also Sword Oath at level 30 instead of Shield Oath. All the defenses being 20% or a multiple of 20% with bad RNG, an active mitigation that blocks only one of any physical attack. And the poor self sustainability wouldn't be so bad if they didn't tank just as well as everyone else, that is a big NO, NO, when building a "King of Tanks"! Clemency is powered by STR instead of being percentage based, which means it's weak for pure VIT tanks. Let's not forget to mention their only claim to fame: Sentinel and Hallowed Ground, where both of which have very long CDs. And their CDs are too long for them to be relying on them. It's bad so back a lot of PLDs stagger CDs and take the hits unmitigated, making it harder on the healer. Staggering CDs is NOT good tanking! It shows how inefficient and ineffective PLDs really are. DRK are riding the same boat about this. And PLDs are inept at AoE damage, could have had gore blade be an AoE, but NOPE, lets annoyingly flash our glimmer at things and hope we don't get stuck with DPS that is equally as bad at AoE, in which case is usually entirely by cluelessness after level 50.

Oh yes let's not forget how 2.0 made Warriors incapable of tanking, and Paladins the most useless garbage there was because NO THREAT. In fact PLD was patched the most times because of this.
And don't get me started on DRK.

PLD and DRK are bad because of bad design.

[Syzygian]

Oh yes let's not forget how 2.0 made Warriors incapable of tanking, and Paladins the most useless garbage there was because NO THREAT. In fact PLD was patched the most times because of this.
And don't get me started on DRK.

PLD and DRK are bad because of bad design.

Please get started on DRK. I'd love to hear.

DRK has only 1 CD with a recast of more than 90s, not counting Living Dead, I've never had to stagger CDs in any fight that required full uptime of mitigation (which is very few). In A2S for example, there's zero need to pop a CD in the last 30 seconds of finishing off the last mob or two in any of the waves. Hell you spend half that fight out of tank stance until the Jagd Dolls show up anyway.

DRK is not far behind WAR in terms of viability, really the only thing it is missing that WAR has is a slashing debuff and the very high OT DPS and burst. DRK can actually outperform WAR in MT DPS with proper stance dancing and the slashing debuff, albeit not by much. DRK is nowhere near as problematic as PLD is right now. DRK is actually very well designed if you know how to properly use its tools (i.e. popping Dark Dance to proc Reprisal when you need it, not boosting your evasion/blinding things when you have Blood Price up, and other such dumb mistakes that people like to say are a fault of the job's design and not of their poor play). Get it to 60 and start progressing in savage on it and then we can talk about its design.

[Freyyy]

DRK can actually outperform WAR in MT DPS with proper stance dancing and the slashing debuff, albeit not by much

I pretty much agree with all you said but I'll just add that if tanking a boss that doesn't let you get out of tanking stance much, DRK is pretty far ahead of WAR in terms of MT DPS. It's kinda impressive. Tho it highly depends on parry and Low Blows RNG, but even with bad luck it's still insanely high for a MT.

I still find something pretty conflicting about DRK, the fact that it's that highly parry-related while being the best magical tank. When fighting an enemy which hits only with magic you have no Reprisal nor Low Blow procs. Not that it's a problem (seriously, you don't even need Reprisal when tanking a magic boss, but it's still a DPS loss to not have it bruh) but it seems like the developpers didn't put all of their thoughts into that precise thing.

[Syzygian]

I pretty much agree with all you said but I'll just add that if tanking a boss that doesn't let you get out of tanking stance much, DRK is pretty far ahead of WAR in terms of MT DPS. It's kinda impressive. Tho it highly depends on parry and Low Blows RNG, but even with bad luck it's still insanely high for a MT. I still find something pretty conflicting about DRK, the fact that it's that highly parry-related while being the best magical tank. When fighting an enemy which hits only with magic you have no Reprisal nor Low Blow procs. Not that it's a problem (seriously, you don't even need Reprisal when tanking a magic boss, but it's still a DPS loss to not have it bruh) but it seems like the developpers didn't put all of their thoughts into that precise thing.

Yeah about the MT DPS, not a lot of people realize that. That's why I hate it when people say DRK is busted or needs crazy buffs like PLD. In a DRK/WAR or DRK/PLD composition no matter what raid dps will always be highest when the DRK MTs.

I see where you're coming from with the parry focus + magic thing. But I feel like between their other CDs and Dark Dance, they do alright. I went into A2S with everyone telling me DRK's are like wet paper bags in there, it really wasn't that bad. I feel like PLD's shield is only ever so slightly ahead, other than Bulwark and Sheltron its not as though they have anything DRK doesn't. And no tank has as legitimate, physical version of Dark Mind.

One other thing on this topic is how people are still saying Foresight is trash. 20% of our defense stat now is such a huge number compared to what it was pre-HW. People forget it scales with gear. I still wouldn't pop it alone when tanking anything that deals meaningful damage but its certainly not as garbage as it is still as ubiquitously thought to be. Honestly, on the whole in this game physical damage just straight-up is not as threatening as magic damage.

I think DRK's physical mitigation only seems so small because of scenarios like for instance, popping DA DM and Shadow Wall against magic tank busters and if you get crit with an Adlo take 0 damage. It has the -necessary- mitigation to survive high physical damage, just nothing so over the top. TBs are crazy weak in this current meta. Half the time, I'm eating them without an Adlo or SS or Virus, whereas I remember in t13 people had rotations set up so you would have almost all of those things plus all your cooldowns every time, and nowadays, half the time healers don't even bother. I think this also contributes to tanking things outside of tank stance being more commonplace than ever, as exponentially more damage is being dealt over the course of the fight through other sources than through TBs (don't even get me started on A3S autoattacks), even more so now than compared to 2.x, thus healers have less room than ever to DPS and tanks have less reason to stay in tank stance due to the healer focus already being so high on incoming damage.