Lets nerf WAR :D

[AnimaS]

They seem to be willingly remaining blissfully ignorant to the fact that, in addition to WAR being overpowered;

1. Tanks don't wear tank gear.
2. Pentamelds are OP.
3. Tanks disable their tank stances at the first possible opportunity.

I am guilty of all of the above and I hate it.

1 is just ridiculous.
2 was already addressed by capping the ilevel of accessories, materia is a part of FFXIV and it's not going to dissapear
3. dicto simpliciter, and then he admits his own projection:

I am guilty of all of the above and I hate it. the OP is referring to himself. Shame on SE for allowing you to do these things. These are projections and seem to antagonize the very same mobs of commenters into saying the very same things to once again demonstrate they are capable of a circular argument ........ until they NEXT one, be it in the DPS Forum over Ninja or MCH, here or the Healer forums.

[Syzygian]

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.

And that's fine. We can agree to disagree. Its no skin off my back and as I said, I'm not married to any of the ideas in my OP, but I do think we need a more balanced tanking meta and I feel like a, as I said, slight handful of nerfs to WAR would be the quickest way to achieve that.

WAR has zero disadvantages or true hurdles to overcome. That's broken. Every job in the game has pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses. If you're making the argument that because WAR is the best tank and there is literally zero drawback to bringing one to the raid, or playing one for that matter, PLD and DRK need to be buffed, that's like saying every job in the game should be buffed.

Basically, WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet* for your job to have drawbacks and areas where its less than optimal. Every other job in the game has to deal with that, and this thread is trying to say, basically "why shouldn't you, as well?"

[OPneedNerfs]

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.



How do you know it was because of WAR, specifically? Did they say that? Sure, WAR was a contributing factor, but there were several others, as well (DRK allowing groups to drop MNK, pentameld/STR accessories, tanking in DPS stance, healer DPS, being particularly exceptional players, etc.). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

[PotatoWafflez]

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

Isn't that just progression meta though? you switch out all the weak parts for better ones? I can't think a single progression raid that doesn't stack class advantages in any game. I really don't see how they even care half the time either because isn't their main goal just to down the fight before anyone else regardless of what class they play?

I feel like the problem is more that people expect to be able to play any class they want when the gear treadmill isn't at the point where that is viable but once you get to that point and past it all of this becomes moot as its not longer as big a issue because the checks got easier from having more gear.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[RapBreon]

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

This happens in very difficult world firsts (class stacking, crazy one-heal strats; which only some healers can do, etc.). I'm not sure that's evidence of PLD being broken (non-optimal for the fight/tier yes). An extreme outlier, a trend does not make. I'm not sure why people keep pointing to a situation irrelevant for well over 99.9999% of the playerbase.

In the context of other MMOs, this game is...very well balanced.

[Duelle]

This happens in very difficult world firsts (class stacking, crazy one-heal strats; which only some healers can do, etc.). I'm not sure that's evidence of PLD being broken (non-optimal for the fight/tier yes). An extreme outlier, a trend does not make.

You mean like how the extreme outlier of Coil 4/5 somehow convincing people that WARs could not tank HM Garuda?

For lack of better terms, this shit rolls downhill. If it's done at the top, it'll trickle down eventually. That's how it works, and that's why balance and parity are so important.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

If you're making the argument that because WAR is the best tank and there is literally zero drawback to bringing one to the raid, or playing one for that matter, PLD and DRK need to be buffed, that's like saying every job in the game should be buffed.

I'm not making any argument; I'm saying that yours is weak.

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

So, PLD couldn't make the cut, but WAR is overpowered?

[Lazka]

snip

come on... its like warrior is OP from start?
i mean look 2.0 is war viable as tank?
pre 2.0 war barerly have spot in raid... but its seem safe bring 2 PLD than 2 war... (tell to ur healer about healing 2 PLD than 2 war which they prefer)
and now in 3.0 they have a nice spot in raid and u just say... "no.. all tank must suffer same.. so no 1 tank allowed to be a safe spot in raid, nerf them"
is that u mean?

[OPneedNerfs]

Isn't that just progression meta though? you switch out all the weak parts for better ones? I can't think a single progression raid that doesn't stack class advantages in any game. I really don't see how they even care half the time either because isn't their main goal just to down the fight before anyone else regardless of what class they play?

I feel like the problem is more that people expect to be able to play any class they want when the gear treadmill isn't at the point where that is viable but once you get to that point and past it all of this becomes moot as its not longer as big a issue because the checks got easier from having more gear.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Sigh... the gear argument again. When Job A is able to clear content WEEKS before Job B due to gear limitations which are gated by time and RNG, and when Job B is what the devs/the community views as the normal pace of progression, Job A is broken by that definition is it not?

And also, the biggest flaw of the gear argument is that while Job B now becomes able to complete said content, Job A gets a boost to their ability to clear the content much smoother/safer/faster. Gear helps all jobs, not just the ones that are lacking so it's a pretty moot point when it comes to balancing jobs.

[FallenWings]

I'm not sure why we are all competing against eachother when we should be working together. Nerfing WAR is a good point for tank balance if the majority of the other tank's problem weren't because of their own class designs rather than comparisons between the tank classes. Apart from DPS, PLD's and DRK's would still suffer from TP problems and mitigation issues, nerfing WAR's in that area just adds them to the angry mob.

To OP's opening post:
1. Along with putting WAR's pretty much next to PLD or under DPS in OT and MT stance would also greatly slow down the pace of the class as well as the uptime of Inner Beast and Fell Cleave, the former making it's average uptime much lower than Rampart and Shadowskin and the latter essentially halving the DPS contribution of Fell cleave which was roughly 20-30% of a WAR's total DPS. You'd also break a WAR's Triple FC Berserk combo and that alone will stir an uproar.
2. At 200 potency it would suffer the current Shield Swipe dilemna in which people wouldn't use it because it'd be a DPS loss. Sure the Mitigation is great but it frankly only works when you have a Target and is on the GCD which can greatly screw you over if you miss time it. The self heal is a boon and Inner Beast more or less defines WAR's tanking kit.
3. 5% could work out, 10% is abit overkill unless you want to make DRK the lead of Damage for tanks.
4. I don't need to tell you that 1GCD of no damage > 8/12GCD's of reduced damage as well as a larger punishment if you happen to misjudge the incoming damage.
5. The TP from equilibrium actually just makes WAR's AoE sustain more plausible and being the Damage Tank it'd make sense for them to have good AoE sustain along with DRK's. This change won't really affect WAR ST as much since alot of their TP sustain is from Free GCD's through Fell Cleave/Inner Beast and Pacifications.
6. Lol I could already maintain aggro without Butcher's. This would just be a buff to muh DPS tanking shenanigans since I'd assume you'd just make SP better than BB in terms of potency making muh DPS tanking more viable. Idk mang. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The WAR could y'know, use his brain and use SP instead of screwing with enmity if its even a problem.

7?. I don't remember but the averages of Sentinel vs Vengeance in uptime and potency were somewhat similiar. You'd just make Vengeance inferior to Sentinel. LolShadowWall. Thrill of Battle is pretty crappy on its own and doesn't deserve the extended cooldown for what it does. You'd just screw over the timing with Convalescence.

8. Idk 15% might be fine.

Balance is great.

But balancing to garbage tier is not fun. Everyone wants to have fun!

A reasonable nerf I'd like to see however would be the redesign of Storm's Path into something else and returning the effect to BRD and MCH. That way WAR would be brought for more damage and the other two for more mitigations. Idk just spitballing.