Lets nerf WAR :D

[MeeYow]

I never said anything about damage. I'm talking about each tanks ability to do the fundamental task of generating aoe and single target threat. Pld and drk have separate bucket for each task, and the ST bucket refills the AOE bucket QUICKLY. War, for whatever reason was designed with 1 bucket for both tasks and it would be a little wierd if maim gave you 100 tp to mirror the aoe threat resource regen function of riot blade and friend. So we have Equalibrium instead.

Go do A2S on war and 'ration' your overpowers without the tp regen from equalibrium. 3 gcds of flash does not magically recover enough tp to function in a prolonged 10 min endurance fight to perform fundamental aoe threat management.

I am only talking about equalibrium and resource management. If you want to go join the damage QQ support group there's plenty of other people willing to fight and cry with you over that. I don't care to wade into that sea of crap. The fact that flash does no damage is irrelivant to my point that all tanks need a fundamental way to generate both aoe and single target threat in a prolonged instance. If you take equalibrium you have to put it back in some other way to maintain that bare minimum tank functionality.

Edit: I copied the wrong name and got the wrong stats, so based on your gear I am guessing you have done A2S, but that kind of makes things worse:


If you have done A2S you would know AS I POINTED OUT PAGES AGO that emnity is an extremely minor issue because most of the mobs are instantly stunned by a move called temporary insanity from the gobwalker. So any move that deals zero damage and only generates hate is borderline useless. Ring any bells? (Answer: Flash)

Edit 2: I left in bitchy tome farming related section assuming you werent doing savage, it wasn't relevant so I removed it.
The point was: Let's not balance classes around tome roulette, but you weren't trying to, apologies.

Dare I say you ignored damage because it undermines your entire point? Include every aspect of balance or dont comment at all.
Excluding any point of the class is the obvious way of telling the community you are trying to play the numbers or flat out lie.

It is clearly not a basic or fundamental requirement that the class has equilibrium TP to generate hate as shown in all of the 2.x patch line.

[Izsha]

Edit: I copied the wrong name and got the wrong stats, so based on your gear I am guessing you have done A2S, but that kind of makes things worse:


If you have done A2S you would know AS I POINTED OUT PAGES AGO that emnity is an extremely minor issue because most of the mobs are instantly stunned by a move called temporary insanity from the gobwalker. So any move that deals zero damage and only generates hate is borderline useless. Ring any bells? (Answer: Flash)

Edit 2: I left in bitchy tome farming related section assuming you werent doing savage, it wasn't relevant so I removed it.
The point was: Let's not balance classes around tome roulette, but you weren't trying to, apologies.

Dare I say you ignored damage because it undermines your entire point? Include every aspect of balance or dont comment at all.
Excluding any point of the class is the obvious way of telling the community you are trying to play the numbers or flat out lie.

I ignore damage because my point still stands even if flash had 150 pot and OP had 0 pot. The game is designed where aoe functions cost a LOT of resource. Every dps aoe costs a lot. Holy costs a lot. Flare costs your entire mp pool. All aoe gcds are over 100tp. This game makes you pay through the nose for aoe anything and that's true for tanks. As tanks must generate threat vs dps they all have ways to regenerate that aoe resource now. Pld has riot for mp aoe. War has equal for tp aoe. Regardless of wars overall 'op status' or whatever you want to call it, they still need a way to manage aoe resources. Don't get so bent outta shape over damage related balance that you try to kill basic tank functions. If OP had 0 pot my point still stands. It stands regardless of dps balance or imbalance. Tanks need a way to regenerate resources to continue to generate threat at all times.

[MeeYow]

A fundamental change of tone which I think this thread should have opened with:

WARs, you are currently best or close to best at just about every aspect of tanking, from DPS both single target and AoE, emnity both single target and AoE, to utility and universal damage mitigation.

What, if you had to lose something either entirely or partially, would be the thing you would be most OK with losing.

[Syzygian]

A fundamental change of tone which I think this thread should have opened with:

WARs, you are currently best or close to best at just about every aspect of tanking, from DPS both single target and AoE, emnity both single target and AoE, to utility and universal damage mitigation.

What, if you had to get lose something, would be the thing you would be most OK with losing.

Editing in. :P damage is probably done though. xD

[Giantbane]

The way WAR plays feels good, the way the abilities interact with each other feels good, the class has good flexibility in terms of damage vs. tanking, the class has good utility and the class can manage its resources well

Why would you want to change this? This should be the ideal that PLD/DRK design aspires to.

[Duelle]

The way WAR plays feels good, the way the abilities interact with each other feels good, the class has good flexibility in terms of damage vs. tanking, the class has good utility and the class can manage its resources well

Why would you want to change this? This should be the ideal that PLD/DRK design aspires to.

Damage and utility should not be the defining elements of tank classes, since that creates incongruities in performance that lead to scenarios not unlike what we're seeing right now. The metagame isn't the only source of the problem; how SE approached tank design is a part of it too.

This said, my own concern would be relative damage between tanks and DPS. That's why I'd be hesitant to buff PLD damage and simply would lower tank emphasis on DPS a bit while making all 3 perform close to each other numberswise. Gameplay choices are attached to this, since by design PLD, WAR and DRK are clearly not meant to be tanking outside of Grit/Defiance/Shield Oath, and I have a feeling part of the issue would go away if you somehow forced all three to full-time their tank stances when main tanking (if I recall, Defiance WAR was pulling slightly ahead of a Shield Oath PLD back in ARR).

The next item would be utility, which is rather sparse on WAR with the exception of how strong Storm's Path is (which I suspect is a reason for WAR being guaranteed a raid spot). This is where you need to homogenize a bit. Either make Halone and Delirium provide the same effect, or make Storm's Path a buff that only affects the WAR.

[Giantbane]

Damage and utility should not be the defining elements of tank classes, since that creates incongruities in performance that lead to scenarios not unlike what we're seeing right now. The metagame isn't the only source of the problem; how SE approached tank design is a part of it too.

This said, my own concern would be relative damage between tanks and DPS. That's why I'd be hesitant to buff PLD damage and simply would lower tank emphasis on DPS a bit while making all 3 perform close to each other numberswise. Gameplay choices are attached to this, since by design PLD, WAR and DRK are clearly not meant to be tanking outside of Grit/Defiance/Shield Oath, and I have a feeling part of the issue would go away if you somehow forced all three to full-time their tank stances when main tanking (if I recall, Defiance WAR was pulling slightly ahead of a Shield Oath PLD back in ARR).

The next item would be utility, which is rather sparse on WAR with the exception of how strong Storm's Path is (which I suspect is a reason for WAR being guaranteed a raid spot). This is where you need to homogenize a bit. Either make Halone and Delirium provide the same effect, or make Storm's Path a buff that only affects the WAR.

I disagree. Sitting around in tank stance is boring and requires no thought or skill. Stance dancing means more interesting gameplay for both the tank and the healers.

It also isn't required unless you're in savage. Everything else you can sit in tank stance all day, or stance dance as you see fit.

It's fine to have differences in damage and utility. But the WAR clearly brings the best of both right now which is the problem. Particularly for the PLD who is way behind in Utility, AoE DPS, shield oath DPS, threat generation and TP management.

[Duelle]

I disagree. Sitting around in tank stance is boring and requires no thought or skill. Stance dancing means more interesting gameplay for both the tank and the healers.

I don't see anything interesting or skillful in having an extra button to push. Your argument would have worked with vanilla WoW warriors because they had actual utility locked behind stances (our interrupt could only be used in Berserker Stance, our fear break/immunity could only be used in Berserker Stance, our stun could only be used in Defensive Stance), and even then it was clunky design that limited gameplay in certain situations (fear break macros were very unreliable, for example).

Also consider that forcing PLD, DRK and WAR to full-time Shield Oath/Grit/Defiance while main tanking helps keep MT DPS on a leash. It'd also be a step in relieving tank DPS from the duty of carrying groups to clears for DPS checks (since that's supposed to be the DPS' responsibility, not the tank's). You'd also be eliminating a factor to balance encounters around since it'd create a specific margin of expected damage from the main tank. Quite a few positives just from nipping that problem in the bud.

It also isn't required unless you're in savage.

And as I've repeatedly said, this shit rolls downhill. It won't surprise me to eventually see people in DF runs giving tanks crap for sticking to their tank stances instead of switching like the "pros" do. This is the same playerbase that fostered WARs in 2.0 that would tell me to MT because "lol war cant tank" HM Garuda.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

WARs, you are currently best

WAR being the most powerful tank isn't what's in contention. Any honest, experienced, player will likely agree that WAR is the most powerful tank.

What is in contention is whether or not WAR is more powerful than it should be; that would warrant a nerf.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

What is in contention is whether or not WAR is more powerful than it should be; that would warrant a nerf.

This guy is using big words and I like it.