Lets nerf WAR :D

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Of course you didn't! Nobody does. That's the problem.

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.

According to Yoshi-P and the dev team, and even the tank community, Alex savage wasn't meant to be cleared in i190. Yet teams with WAR allowed it to be possible to happen.

How do you know it was because of WAR, specifically? Did they say that? Sure, WAR was a contributing factor, but there were several others, as well (DRK allowing groups to drop MNK, pentameld/STR accessories, tanking in DPS stance, healer DPS, being particularly exceptional players, etc.). Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Syzygian]

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.

And that's fine. We can agree to disagree. Its no skin off my back and as I said, I'm not married to any of the ideas in my OP, but I do think we need a more balanced tanking meta and I feel like a, as I said, slight handful of nerfs to WAR would be the quickest way to achieve that.

WAR has zero disadvantages or true hurdles to overcome. That's broken. Every job in the game has pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses. If you're making the argument that because WAR is the best tank and there is literally zero drawback to bringing one to the raid, or playing one for that matter, PLD and DRK need to be buffed, that's like saying every job in the game should be buffed.

Basically, WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet* for your job to have drawbacks and areas where its less than optimal. Every other job in the game has to deal with that, and this thread is trying to say, basically "why shouldn't you, as well?"

[Lazka]

snip

come on... its like warrior is OP from start?
i mean look 2.0 is war viable as tank?
pre 2.0 war barerly have spot in raid... but its seem safe bring 2 PLD than 2 war... (tell to ur healer about healing 2 PLD than 2 war which they prefer)
and now in 3.0 they have a nice spot in raid and u just say... "no.. all tank must suffer same.. so no 1 tank allowed to be a safe spot in raid, nerf them"
is that u mean?

[NFaelivrin]

come on... its like warrior is OP from start?
i mean look 2.0 is war viable as tank?
pre 2.0 war barerly have spot in raid... but its seem safe bring 2 PLD than 2 war... (tell to ur healer about healing 2 PLD than 2 war which they prefer)
and now in 3.0 they have a nice spot in raid and u just say... "no.. all tank must suffer same.. so no 1 tank allowed to be a safe spot in raid, nerf them"
is that u mean?

2.0 was two years ago and is so hilariously irrelevant to now that I still don't understand why people insist on bringing it up. WAR didn't gain relevance only now, its been an incredibly good class since December 14, 2013.

[adn]

WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet*

You can drop the condescending attitude. It really does nothing for your argument other than making you look patronizing. Your attitude throughout the entire thread has been caustic which is putting people off of what you're saying. You sound bitter and angry at WAR as a job instead of wanting to constructively alter it.

The core issue is that the current raid content has been designed so that tanks can sit in DPS stance and just pump DPS until they need to throw their tank stance back on for whatever reason. Take that away and this entire issue vanishes. As someone else pointed out, the stuff that WAR got from 52~58 was obviously designed to beef them up as an OT role but the fact that they can just chill in Deliverance the entire time even while tanking is what's throwing things out of whack.

If you want a simple and effective fix to this issue, Deliverance should cause an increase in damage taken (this is literally how Warrior class in WoW worked up until Cata; Berserker Stance increased your incoming damage). This would cause WARs to think much more carefully about how and when they use Deliverance, and prevent them from abusing it by sitting in it constantly. Of course, if you ask me, the real solution is to address PLD and DRK issues rather than pulling out ye olde nerf bat.

The Equilibrium change is reasonable though.

[OPneedNerfs]

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.



How do you know it was because of WAR, specifically? Did they say that? Sure, WAR was a contributing factor, but there were several others, as well (DRK allowing groups to drop MNK, pentameld/STR accessories, tanking in DPS stance, healer DPS, being particularly exceptional players, etc.). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

[PotatoWafflez]

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

Isn't that just progression meta though? you switch out all the weak parts for better ones? I can't think a single progression raid that doesn't stack class advantages in any game. I really don't see how they even care half the time either because isn't their main goal just to down the fight before anyone else regardless of what class they play?

I feel like the problem is more that people expect to be able to play any class they want when the gear treadmill isn't at the point where that is viable but once you get to that point and past it all of this becomes moot as its not longer as big a issue because the checks got easier from having more gear.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[OPneedNerfs]

Isn't that just progression meta though? you switch out all the weak parts for better ones? I can't think a single progression raid that doesn't stack class advantages in any game. I really don't see how they even care half the time either because isn't their main goal just to down the fight before anyone else regardless of what class they play?

I feel like the problem is more that people expect to be able to play any class they want when the gear treadmill isn't at the point where that is viable but once you get to that point and past it all of this becomes moot as its not longer as big a issue because the checks got easier from having more gear.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Sigh... the gear argument again. When Job A is able to clear content WEEKS before Job B due to gear limitations which are gated by time and RNG, and when Job B is what the devs/the community views as the normal pace of progression, Job A is broken by that definition is it not?

And also, the biggest flaw of the gear argument is that while Job B now becomes able to complete said content, Job A gets a boost to their ability to clear the content much smoother/safer/faster. Gear helps all jobs, not just the ones that are lacking so it's a pretty moot point when it comes to balancing jobs.

[RapBreon]

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

This happens in very difficult world firsts (class stacking, crazy one-heal strats; which only some healers can do, etc.). I'm not sure that's evidence of PLD being broken (non-optimal for the fight/tier yes). An extreme outlier, a trend does not make. I'm not sure why people keep pointing to a situation irrelevant for well over 99.9999% of the playerbase.

In the context of other MMOs, this game is...very well balanced.