Lets nerf WAR :D

[Syzygian]

Set a criteria for "obscenely overpowered," and then empirically prove that WAR fulfills that criteria.

They have a utility, and a lot of it, that is the single most important and treasured element for progressing on and clearing content quickly: DPS. They have way more of it than the other tanks. They also don't suffer in any area, meaningfully, against the other two tanks, be it in terms of mitigation, or utility. That's the criteria.

The evidence is the game we're playing, and the server progression threads.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

They have a utility, and a lot of it, that is the single most important and treasured element for progressing on and clearing content quickly: DPS. They have way more of it than the other tanks. They also don't suffer in any area, meaningfully, against the other two tanks, be it in terms of mitigation, or utility. That's the criteria.

The evidence is the game we're playing, and the server progression threads.

WAR is the best of the three tanks; I didn't need you to tell me that.

Claiming that it's "obscenely overpowered," however, implies that you know (or think that you know) how powerful the tanks are supposed to be. Illustrating the mathematical difference(s) between the tanks would be a good start in proving that WAR is overpowered.

[Duelle]

A couple of comments.

1. No Wrath/Abandon Stacks from second-tier combo abilities (Maim and Skull Sunder), just from combo enders, just like Greased Lightning on MNK. For flexibility's sake, keep the stacks granted by Vengeance and Berserk though and leaving Infuriate as-is.

I'll disagree with this, since it sort of slows down the pace of the job. If you want to reduce the damage output attached to these stacks, wouldn't it be better to directly nerf the damage on Inner Beast and Fel Cleave?

2. Inner Beast damage nerf. There's zero reason for an ability that is a self heal and 20% damage mitigation that is usable several times a minute to also have 300 potency of damage on it. 200 potency sounds more reasonable and I feel like even that is generous.

I can sort of see this, since IB is essentially free damage. You'd probably need to run simulations to determine whether the self heal from IB would need to be buffed to keep WAR mitigation competitive.

3. SLIGHT nerf to Maim or Unchained. I get that WAR has a high degree of offensive CDs because it has lower potencies and almost no off-GCD dps, but one of them needs a nerf. Either a recast time increase or slight (like 5-10%) damage nerf. Combined with Internal Release and Berserk its just a silly amount of free damage CDs they have, and their potencies aren't THAT much lower. Maybe make Berserk's pacification incurable.

Unchained is really weird since I can't think of any way to nerf it without messing with something else. Maim's damage bonus could be reduced to 15 or 10%, though.

4. Increase Defiance/Deliverance recast to 20-30s. The ease of stance dancing and being off-GCD is an integral part of the job, but make WARs think about it a bit more before they make the switch.

I'll sort of disagree on the part of stance dancing being integral. By design almost everything WAR gets from 52-60 was clearly made for off-tanking. This includes the fact that Equilibrium has two different effects and that Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast have their Deliverance counterparts.

Since I want to see tanking in DPS stance go the way of the dodo, I'd attach an enmity drop to switching stances before elongating the cooldown.

5. Nerf Equilibrium in Deliverance to 100 TP. Someone told me once how long a WAR OT takes to TP floor. I don't remember the number, but it was insane. They shouldn't have such an unequivocal advantage over every other job in the game that uses TP.

Agree.

[Syzygian]

WAR is the best of the three tanks; I didn't need you to tell me that.

Of course you didn't! Nobody does. That's the problem.

[OPneedNerfs]

WAR is the best of the three tanks; I didn't need you to tell me that.

Claiming that it's "obscenely overpowered," however, implies you know (or think you know) how powerful the tanks are supposed to be. Illustrating the mathematical difference(s) between the tanks would be a good start in proving that WAR is overpowered.

According to Yoshi-P and the dev team, and even the tank community, Alex savage wasn't meant to be cleared in i190. Yet teams with WAR allowed it to be possible to happen.

Not forgetting the fact that PLD/DRK will NEVER be a viable combination simply due to how much less damage and sustainability they have along with worse raid utility.

Until PLD/DRK becomes as valid a combination as PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR, buffs or nerfs will be required.

[Valkyrie-Amber]

Why nerf war? just buff Drk's and Plds to wards dps levels buff the mitigation all 3 tanks to be same.

Then instead of many people only taking the two better tanks people would take any of the 3 if was just play style different.

[Syzygian]

According to Yoshi-P and the dev team, and even the tank community, Alex savage wasn't meant to be cleared in i190. Yet teams with WAR allowed it to be possible to happen.

Not forgetting the fact that PLD/DRK will NEVER be a viable combination simply due to how much less damage and sustainability they have along with worse raid utility.

Until PLD/DRK becomes as valid a combination as PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR, buffs or nerfs will be required.

They seem to be willingly remaining blissfully ignorant to the fact that, in addition to WAR being overpowered;

1. Tanks don't wear tank gear.
2. Pentamelds are OP.
3. Tanks disable their tank stances at the first possible opportunity.

I am guilty of all of the above and I hate it.

Why nerf war? just buff Drk's and Plds to wards dps levels buff the mitigation all 3 tanks to be same.

Then instead of many people only taking the two better tanks people would take any of the 3 if was just play style different.

Away with you and your logic.

That's what people refer to as homogenization and while it would seem like tanks being able to do competitive DPS with each other and mitigate damage/offer utility in equal portions is a fantastic idea, people apparently want to have critical, game-breaking discrepancies in these fundamental areas between the three tanks.

They can't accept the mechanical playstyle of the jobs being different, and that being enough:

1. PLD: Blocking, intelligent use of Shield Swipe to maintain hate through your other combos and save TP, raid awareness and looking for ways to help protect and mitigate damage for your party through Stoneskin/Cover etc. thinking like tank+support rather than a tank+DPS.
2. WAR: Slower paced, seemless stance-dancing, managing stacks and spending them intelligently, maintaining debuffs for your party that effect both incoming and outgoing damage, maximizing DPS.
3. DRK: Mana management, short recast CDs with a lot of CD stacking in mind, fast-paced- abundant off-GCD weaving of damaging abilities, larger focus on AoE, resource sustainability and proc-based mitigation/damage.

These are just general differences in the feel and playstyle of the jobs. But nope. Not enough.

[OPneedNerfs]

Why nerf war? just buff Drk's and Plds to wards dps levels buff the mitigation all 3 tanks to be same.

Then instead of many people only taking the two better tanks people would take any of the 3 if was just play style different.

But muhh "homogenization".

Srsly there's even a thread with the whole fearmongering of "homogenization" on the first page of the tank forums.

Being able to dish out and mitigate roughly equal amounts of damage suddenly becomes "homogenization" because then people wouldn't pick X class and Y class as the best combination anymore.

The hypocrisy of those saying how they hated "PLD dominance" in 2.0 and how they "deserve it" now when they're afraid of their spot being taken is honestly hilarious.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Of course you didn't! Nobody does. That's the problem.

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.

According to Yoshi-P and the dev team, and even the tank community, Alex savage wasn't meant to be cleared in i190. Yet teams with WAR allowed it to be possible to happen.

How do you know it was because of WAR, specifically? Did they say that? Sure, WAR was a contributing factor, but there were several others, as well (DRK allowing groups to drop MNK, pentameld/STR accessories, tanking in DPS stance, healer DPS, being particularly exceptional players, etc.). Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ultimatecalibur]

No. If they did nerf war that'd be the last time I play that class.

So you only play Warrior because it is more powerful than the other two tanks?