Lets nerf WAR :D

[adn]

WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet*

You can drop the condescending attitude. It really does nothing for your argument other than making you look patronizing. Your attitude throughout the entire thread has been caustic which is putting people off of what you're saying. You sound bitter and angry at WAR as a job instead of wanting to constructively alter it.

The core issue is that the current raid content has been designed so that tanks can sit in DPS stance and just pump DPS until they need to throw their tank stance back on for whatever reason. Take that away and this entire issue vanishes. As someone else pointed out, the stuff that WAR got from 52~58 was obviously designed to beef them up as an OT role but the fact that they can just chill in Deliverance the entire time even while tanking is what's throwing things out of whack.

If you want a simple and effective fix to this issue, Deliverance should cause an increase in damage taken (this is literally how Warrior class in WoW worked up until Cata; Berserker Stance increased your incoming damage). This would cause WARs to think much more carefully about how and when they use Deliverance, and prevent them from abusing it by sitting in it constantly. Of course, if you ask me, the real solution is to address PLD and DRK issues rather than pulling out ye olde nerf bat.

The Equilibrium change is reasonable though.

[OPneedNerfs]

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.



How do you know it was because of WAR, specifically? Did they say that? Sure, WAR was a contributing factor, but there were several others, as well (DRK allowing groups to drop MNK, pentameld/STR accessories, tanking in DPS stance, healer DPS, being particularly exceptional players, etc.). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

[PotatoWafflez]

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

Isn't that just progression meta though? you switch out all the weak parts for better ones? I can't think a single progression raid that doesn't stack class advantages in any game. I really don't see how they even care half the time either because isn't their main goal just to down the fight before anyone else regardless of what class they play?

I feel like the problem is more that people expect to be able to play any class they want when the gear treadmill isn't at the point where that is viable but once you get to that point and past it all of this becomes moot as its not longer as big a issue because the checks got easier from having more gear.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[OPneedNerfs]

Isn't that just progression meta though? you switch out all the weak parts for better ones? I can't think a single progression raid that doesn't stack class advantages in any game. I really don't see how they even care half the time either because isn't their main goal just to down the fight before anyone else regardless of what class they play?

I feel like the problem is more that people expect to be able to play any class they want when the gear treadmill isn't at the point where that is viable but once you get to that point and past it all of this becomes moot as its not longer as big a issue because the checks got easier from having more gear.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Sigh... the gear argument again. When Job A is able to clear content WEEKS before Job B due to gear limitations which are gated by time and RNG, and when Job B is what the devs/the community views as the normal pace of progression, Job A is broken by that definition is it not?

And also, the biggest flaw of the gear argument is that while Job B now becomes able to complete said content, Job A gets a boost to their ability to clear the content much smoother/safer/faster. Gear helps all jobs, not just the ones that are lacking so it's a pretty moot point when it comes to balancing jobs.

[RapBreon]

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

This happens in very difficult world firsts (class stacking, crazy one-heal strats; which only some healers can do, etc.). I'm not sure that's evidence of PLD being broken (non-optimal for the fight/tier yes). An extreme outlier, a trend does not make. I'm not sure why people keep pointing to a situation irrelevant for well over 99.9999% of the playerbase.

In the context of other MMOs, this game is...very well balanced.

[Duelle]

This happens in very difficult world firsts (class stacking, crazy one-heal strats; which only some healers can do, etc.). I'm not sure that's evidence of PLD being broken (non-optimal for the fight/tier yes). An extreme outlier, a trend does not make.

You mean like how the extreme outlier of Coil 4/5 somehow convincing people that WARs could not tank HM Garuda?

For lack of better terms, this shit rolls downhill. If it's done at the top, it'll trickle down eventually. That's how it works, and that's why balance and parity are so important.

[RapBreon]

You mean like how the extreme outlier of Coil 4/5 somehow convincing people that WARs could not tank HM Garuda?

For lack of better terms, this shit rolls downhill. If it's done at the top, it'll trickle down eventually. That's how it works, and that's why balance and parity are so important.

People being unable to interpret data is an issue that can't be solved (not game-wise, different topic). Even if all three tanks were perfectly balanced; one would still have to sit for the world first. Even if that other tank is capable of doing it (WARs could do 4/5, it was just simply harder; a burden world firsts wouldn't shoulder because it jeopardizes their chances). Balance is not necessarily that out-of-whack (not in the situation presented anyway); but it is certainly overblown.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

If you're making the argument that because WAR is the best tank and there is literally zero drawback to bringing one to the raid, or playing one for that matter, PLD and DRK need to be buffed, that's like saying every job in the game should be buffed.

I'm not making any argument; I'm saying that yours is weak.

Because PLD/DRK was impossible to clear in i190 just like the devs said? Heck, even PLD/WAR was having major issues that they switched to DRK/WAR for more DPS and that was from one of the top progression raiding teams now.

So, PLD couldn't make the cut, but WAR is overpowered?

[FallenWings]

I'm not sure why we are all competing against eachother when we should be working together. Nerfing WAR is a good point for tank balance if the majority of the other tank's problem weren't because of their own class designs rather than comparisons between the tank classes. Apart from DPS, PLD's and DRK's would still suffer from TP problems and mitigation issues, nerfing WAR's in that area just adds them to the angry mob.

To OP's opening post:
1. Along with putting WAR's pretty much next to PLD or under DPS in OT and MT stance would also greatly slow down the pace of the class as well as the uptime of Inner Beast and Fell Cleave, the former making it's average uptime much lower than Rampart and Shadowskin and the latter essentially halving the DPS contribution of Fell cleave which was roughly 20-30% of a WAR's total DPS. You'd also break a WAR's Triple FC Berserk combo and that alone will stir an uproar.
2. At 200 potency it would suffer the current Shield Swipe dilemna in which people wouldn't use it because it'd be a DPS loss. Sure the Mitigation is great but it frankly only works when you have a Target and is on the GCD which can greatly screw you over if you miss time it. The self heal is a boon and Inner Beast more or less defines WAR's tanking kit.
3. 5% could work out, 10% is abit overkill unless you want to make DRK the lead of Damage for tanks.
4. I don't need to tell you that 1GCD of no damage > 8/12GCD's of reduced damage as well as a larger punishment if you happen to misjudge the incoming damage.
5. The TP from equilibrium actually just makes WAR's AoE sustain more plausible and being the Damage Tank it'd make sense for them to have good AoE sustain along with DRK's. This change won't really affect WAR ST as much since alot of their TP sustain is from Free GCD's through Fell Cleave/Inner Beast and Pacifications.
6. Lol I could already maintain aggro without Butcher's. This would just be a buff to muh DPS tanking shenanigans since I'd assume you'd just make SP better than BB in terms of potency making muh DPS tanking more viable. Idk mang. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The WAR could y'know, use his brain and use SP instead of screwing with enmity if its even a problem.

7?. I don't remember but the averages of Sentinel vs Vengeance in uptime and potency were somewhat similiar. You'd just make Vengeance inferior to Sentinel. LolShadowWall. Thrill of Battle is pretty crappy on its own and doesn't deserve the extended cooldown for what it does. You'd just screw over the timing with Convalescence.

8. Idk 15% might be fine.

Balance is great.

But balancing to garbage tier is not fun. Everyone wants to have fun!

A reasonable nerf I'd like to see however would be the redesign of Storm's Path into something else and returning the effect to BRD and MCH. That way WAR would be brought for more damage and the other two for more mitigations. Idk just spitballing.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Well. This is a bit of a silly idea. But I will agree that Equilibrium restoring TP in Deliverance is BS.

I want my HP regen in Deliverance too. Only mildly less joking, WAR alone didn't make any world first clears possible. It took the entire team working together to an extreme degree and stacking every tiny single bit of advantage they could muster in order to actually make the cut. This says nothing about PLD as much as it does how useful DRK's Delirium is.

...And if we're talking class nerfs, why not remove Storm's Eye? Make Ninja mandatory. Give Storm's Eye some other effect.