Lets nerf WAR :D

[Syzygian]

According to Yoshi-P and the dev team, and even the tank community, Alex savage wasn't meant to be cleared in i190. Yet teams with WAR allowed it to be possible to happen.

Not forgetting the fact that PLD/DRK will NEVER be a viable combination simply due to how much less damage and sustainability they have along with worse raid utility.

Until PLD/DRK becomes as valid a combination as PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR, buffs or nerfs will be required.

They seem to be willingly remaining blissfully ignorant to the fact that, in addition to WAR being overpowered;

1. Tanks don't wear tank gear.
2. Pentamelds are OP.
3. Tanks disable their tank stances at the first possible opportunity.

I am guilty of all of the above and I hate it.

Why nerf war? just buff Drk's and Plds to wards dps levels buff the mitigation all 3 tanks to be same.

Then instead of many people only taking the two better tanks people would take any of the 3 if was just play style different.

Away with you and your logic.

That's what people refer to as homogenization and while it would seem like tanks being able to do competitive DPS with each other and mitigate damage/offer utility in equal portions is a fantastic idea, people apparently want to have critical, game-breaking discrepancies in these fundamental areas between the three tanks.

They can't accept the mechanical playstyle of the jobs being different, and that being enough:

1. PLD: Blocking, intelligent use of Shield Swipe to maintain hate through your other combos and save TP, raid awareness and looking for ways to help protect and mitigate damage for your party through Stoneskin/Cover etc. thinking like tank+support rather than a tank+DPS.
2. WAR: Slower paced, seemless stance-dancing, managing stacks and spending them intelligently, maintaining debuffs for your party that effect both incoming and outgoing damage, maximizing DPS.
3. DRK: Mana management, short recast CDs with a lot of CD stacking in mind, fast-paced- abundant off-GCD weaving of damaging abilities, larger focus on AoE, resource sustainability and proc-based mitigation/damage.

These are just general differences in the feel and playstyle of the jobs. But nope. Not enough.

[GavynG]

Personally I don't think any job that's fun should be made less fun. I like where warriors are at and I don't even play one.

I do play DRK and PLD, though, and it's PLD I'd like to see tweaked a bit... Not so much their dps like everyone else seems to want (though I wouldn't complain if they did :P), but the way they play. Like taking Shield and Sword Oath off the GCD, while also not interrupting your combos when you use them. Buffing PLD's enmity (especially AoE for the lowbies), lowering a few CD timers, tweaking Clemency and other "support-type" abilities to make them more worth using, etc., and so that they have more to do than just manage aggro. I'd rather be able to support the group more and feel more active than get a boost to dps. As for DRK, most of what I want from PLD has been based on my experience playing DRK, so it's safe to say I'm pretty satisfied with them. :P Even if I feel they could use a tweak or two. Just not on the same level I feel PLD needs it.

[Duelle]

A couple of comments.

1. No Wrath/Abandon Stacks from second-tier combo abilities (Maim and Skull Sunder), just from combo enders, just like Greased Lightning on MNK. For flexibility's sake, keep the stacks granted by Vengeance and Berserk though and leaving Infuriate as-is.

I'll disagree with this, since it sort of slows down the pace of the job. If you want to reduce the damage output attached to these stacks, wouldn't it be better to directly nerf the damage on Inner Beast and Fel Cleave?

2. Inner Beast damage nerf. There's zero reason for an ability that is a self heal and 20% damage mitigation that is usable several times a minute to also have 300 potency of damage on it. 200 potency sounds more reasonable and I feel like even that is generous.

I can sort of see this, since IB is essentially free damage. You'd probably need to run simulations to determine whether the self heal from IB would need to be buffed to keep WAR mitigation competitive.

3. SLIGHT nerf to Maim or Unchained. I get that WAR has a high degree of offensive CDs because it has lower potencies and almost no off-GCD dps, but one of them needs a nerf. Either a recast time increase or slight (like 5-10%) damage nerf. Combined with Internal Release and Berserk its just a silly amount of free damage CDs they have, and their potencies aren't THAT much lower. Maybe make Berserk's pacification incurable.

Unchained is really weird since I can't think of any way to nerf it without messing with something else. Maim's damage bonus could be reduced to 15 or 10%, though.

4. Increase Defiance/Deliverance recast to 20-30s. The ease of stance dancing and being off-GCD is an integral part of the job, but make WARs think about it a bit more before they make the switch.

I'll sort of disagree on the part of stance dancing being integral. By design almost everything WAR gets from 52-60 was clearly made for off-tanking. This includes the fact that Equilibrium has two different effects and that Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast have their Deliverance counterparts.

Since I want to see tanking in DPS stance go the way of the dodo, I'd attach an enmity drop to switching stances before elongating the cooldown.

5. Nerf Equilibrium in Deliverance to 100 TP. Someone told me once how long a WAR OT takes to TP floor. I don't remember the number, but it was insane. They shouldn't have such an unequivocal advantage over every other job in the game that uses TP.

Agree.

[Valkyrie-Amber]

Why nerf war? just buff Drk's and Plds to wards dps levels buff the mitigation all 3 tanks to be same.

Then instead of many people only taking the two better tanks people would take any of the 3 if was just play style different.

[OPneedNerfs]

Why nerf war? just buff Drk's and Plds to wards dps levels buff the mitigation all 3 tanks to be same.

Then instead of many people only taking the two better tanks people would take any of the 3 if was just play style different.

But muhh "homogenization".

Srsly there's even a thread with the whole fearmongering of "homogenization" on the first page of the tank forums.

Being able to dish out and mitigate roughly equal amounts of damage suddenly becomes "homogenization" because then people wouldn't pick X class and Y class as the best combination anymore.

The hypocrisy of those saying how they hated "PLD dominance" in 2.0 and how they "deserve it" now when they're afraid of their spot being taken is honestly hilarious.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Of course you didn't! Nobody does. That's the problem.

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.

According to Yoshi-P and the dev team, and even the tank community, Alex savage wasn't meant to be cleared in i190. Yet teams with WAR allowed it to be possible to happen.

How do you know it was because of WAR, specifically? Did they say that? Sure, WAR was a contributing factor, but there were several others, as well (DRK allowing groups to drop MNK, pentameld/STR accessories, tanking in DPS stance, healer DPS, being particularly exceptional players, etc.). Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Syzygian]

That doesn't prove the WAR is "obscenely overpowered." Look, I will admit my bias, but that's what you're up against here. I'm not convinced that WAR needs to be nerfed, especially not through your proposed changes.

And that's fine. We can agree to disagree. Its no skin off my back and as I said, I'm not married to any of the ideas in my OP, but I do think we need a more balanced tanking meta and I feel like a, as I said, slight handful of nerfs to WAR would be the quickest way to achieve that.

WAR has zero disadvantages or true hurdles to overcome. That's broken. Every job in the game has pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses. If you're making the argument that because WAR is the best tank and there is literally zero drawback to bringing one to the raid, or playing one for that matter, PLD and DRK need to be buffed, that's like saying every job in the game should be buffed.

Basically, WAR mains, this is my message to you: Its okayyyyy *pet pet* for your job to have drawbacks and areas where its less than optimal. Every other job in the game has to deal with that, and this thread is trying to say, basically "why shouldn't you, as well?"

[Lazka]

snip

come on... its like warrior is OP from start?
i mean look 2.0 is war viable as tank?
pre 2.0 war barerly have spot in raid... but its seem safe bring 2 PLD than 2 war... (tell to ur healer about healing 2 PLD than 2 war which they prefer)
and now in 3.0 they have a nice spot in raid and u just say... "no.. all tank must suffer same.. so no 1 tank allowed to be a safe spot in raid, nerf them"
is that u mean?

[NFaelivrin]

come on... its like warrior is OP from start?
i mean look 2.0 is war viable as tank?
pre 2.0 war barerly have spot in raid... but its seem safe bring 2 PLD than 2 war... (tell to ur healer about healing 2 PLD than 2 war which they prefer)
and now in 3.0 they have a nice spot in raid and u just say... "no.. all tank must suffer same.. so no 1 tank allowed to be a safe spot in raid, nerf them"
is that u mean?

2.0 was two years ago and is so hilariously irrelevant to now that I still don't understand why people insist on bringing it up. WAR didn't gain relevance only now, its been an incredibly good class since December 14, 2013.