Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[MeeYow]

A2S discussion: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-thread/page23

Pretty much every tank thread on BG is in agreement PLD is a liability in A2S. Not unusable, but a liability, the shield simply isn't enough.

As for T4, Hallowed into sentinel for the double dread and to get hate before kiting on the adds at the same time was what made PLD so good, a shield was never what made the difference, even the shield CD bulwark required stacking with convalescence to survive the double and stacked dread phases.

The shield has been a balance issue for PLD for ages because despite the mitigation being easily calculable, it is often overprotected into being some permanent rampart when it is nowhere near.

[Duelle]

No, raids are poorly designed and implemented. This entire tier has made one tank OP in the truest sense of the term, another tank viable because of the power of a single cooldown and marginally better DPS, and the third tank almost completely ignored.

If they are going to fix their raid design to make DPS, healing, and tanking checks equally important, great. If not, they don't need to buff PLD or DRK (if they buff DRK, PLDs will cry louder, if they buff PLD, it'll overtake DRK), they need to nerf WAR.

It's a little of both.

Raid-wise, it's the magic damage and the DPS requirements without a proper raid structure (read: multiple bosses instead of just 4 per tier) and poor raid pacing (which contributes to burn out much more than nonsense like how "boring" gear is).

Class design-wise, it's the fact the three tanks are trying to edge toward mitigation niches and that emphasis has been placed on their varied utility and DPS. Claiming one tank's utility is higher DPS is already asking for trouble. Making a second tank designed to work within the current raid tier is also asking for trouble. And trying to make the third tank have the "best mitigation" is also asking for trouble.

The three tanks should offer comparable mitigation, comparable DPS and comparable utility, with the difference being gameplay and how abilities interact with one another. If this means nerfing WAR DPS down to PLD level, that's fine. If it means getting rid of Storm's Path or changing it so the damage reduction only affects the WAR, that is also fine. If it means getting rid of the INT Debuff on Delirium and the STR debuff on Halone and replacing them with their version of Storm's Path, that's fine too. In the long term, something needs to change because otherwise we're going to run into these problems every time they introduce a new job.

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I'll always point back to my time spent tanking in WoW for a reference to decent tank parity and design. Prot paladins and Death Knights were stronger in certain respects (mostly better AoE DPS but that only mattered when clearing trash packs), but no sane raid would turn away a prot warrior or bear druid the way some raids here brush off PLDs. DKs were the new kid on the block and prot paladins were the easiest of the four tanks to play (prot pally 969 spec), but bears and prot warriors could still tank content; you just saw less of them because...DKs were the new kid and prot pallys were easier to play.

This is the sort of parity and tank balance we need. One where you can grab any tank and clear content.

[Seku]

A2S discussion: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-thread/page23

Pretty much every tank thread on BG is in agreement PLD is a liability in A2S. Not unusable, but a liability, the shield simply isn't enough.

As for T4, Hallowed into sentinel for the double dread and to get hate before kiting on the adds at the same time was what made PLD so good, a shield was never what made the difference, even the shield CD bulwark required stacking with convalescence to survive the double and stacked dread phases.

The shield has been a balance issue for PLD for ages because despite the mitigation being easily calculable, it is often overprotected into being some permanent rampart when it is nowhere near.

Actually from the page you linked (23). Only two showed his distaste for the job, neither claiming a liability. The others admitted that the only problem with PLD was it's lack of aoe paired with a bad summoner, aoes, or pick ups.

Another actually appears to have admitted they originally took PLD due to wanting to lazy through the fight and not learn the waves, depending heavily on hallow.

[Syzygian]

It's a little of both.

Raid-wise, it's the magic damage and the DPS requirements without a proper raid structure (read: multiple bosses instead of just 4 per tier) and poor raid pacing (which contributes to burn out much more than nonsense like how "boring" gear is).

Class design-wise, it's the fact the three tanks are trying to edge toward mitigation niches and that emphasis has been placed on their varied utility and DPS. Claiming one tank's utility is higher DPS is already asking for trouble. Making a second tank designed to work within the current raid tier is also asking for trouble. And trying to make the third tank have the "best mitigation" is also asking for trouble.

The three tanks should offer comparable mitigation, comparable DPS and comparable utility, with the difference being gameplay and how abilities interact with one another. If this means nerfing WAR DPS down to PLD level, that's fine. If it means getting rid of Storm's Path or changing it so the damage reduction only affects the WAR, that is also fine. If it means getting rid of the INT Debuff on Delirium and the STR debuff on Halone and replacing them with their version of Storm's Path, that's fine too. In the long term, something needs to change because otherwise we're going to run into these problems every time they introduce a new job.

-----------------------------

I'll always point back to my time spent tanking in WoW for a reference to decent tank parity and design. Prot paladins and Death Knights were stronger in certain respects (mostly better AoE DPS but that only mattered when clearing trash packs), but no sane raid would turn away a prot warrior or bear druid the way some raids here brush off PLDs. DKs were the new kid on the block and prot paladins were the easiest of the four tanks to play (prot pally 969 spec), but bears and prot warriors could still tank content; you just saw less of them because...DKs were the new kid and prot pallys were easier to play.

This is the sort of parity and tank balance we need. One where you can grab any tank and clear content.

Are you listening Squenix?

[Adrasteia]

A2S discussion: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-thread/page23

Pretty much every tank thread on BG is in agreement PLD is a liability in A2S. Not unusable, but a liability, the shield simply isn't enough.

A Warrior friend of mine joined a static that's on A3S recently, replacing their Paladin. Their very first clear with him in A2S was 63s faster than their best clear with the Paladin.

Anyone who thinks this is okay, Savage or no: I've got ten bridges to sell you out back. Pennies and dimes; won't find a better deal anywhere.

[AnimaS]

If my job had such ridiculous armor, wings on it's head and hid behind a shield I think I'd swap as well. What is it really, the old 1 2 3 combo, you are the greatest tank isn't viable anymore, so let's collectively throw a community temper tantrum cause we want to drop our giant shield and do more damage?

Not even going to post the historical facts anymore cause they are ignored. Just highlighting infantile blathering since the high horse stopped short at the cliff and you fell off... "We,the Paladin Community no longer want to be meat bags because SE changed the content."

[SwordCoheir]

Just highlighting infantile blathering since the high horse stopped short at the cliff and you fell off...

Yeah... we get this every time anything major happens to a job either directly or indirectly that favors one over another. Nothing new and not something we'll see the end of anytime soon. 1.0 MRD/GLD both sucked because you had to literally level every class to 45+ in order to have the proper abilities to tank. 1.18 came around and made shields good giving a little favorbility to GLD, but tanks still mostly sucked. 1.xx class restructuring happened, shields changed again (to a similar system we have now), jobs we're introduced, and WAR pretty much OP dominated till the very end of 1.0. 2.0 hits WAR falls behind a bit, get's changed for overall better, and for the most part both are on par. 3.0 hit's DRK starts behind, but get's built up similar to WAR's 2.0 change which is all fine and dandy, but PLD start's to fall behind endgame due to conceptual design flaws that don't comparatively stack up to the other tanks.
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[NFaelivrin]

If my job had such ridiculous armor, wings on it's head and hid behind a shield I think I'd swap as well. What is it really, the old 1 2 3 combo, you are the greatest tank isn't viable anymore, so let's collectively throw a community temper tantrum cause we want to drop our giant shield and do more damage?

Not even going to post the historical facts anymore cause they are ignored. Just highlighting infantile blathering since the high horse stopped short at the cliff and you fell off... "We,the Paladin Community no longer want to be meat bags because SE changed the content."

Your post manages to simultaneously be insulting and completely incomprehensible, I congratulate you on your ah, worthy contribution, to, this discussion, I guess.

[AnimaS]

Your post manages to simultaneously be insulting and completely incomprehensible.

That makes no literary sense, as for insulting I have an idea. Let's remove Paladin from combat instances and put them where they belong (that means you as well).... TO THE JOUSTING ARENA!
Yes content exclusively for Paladins! Chocobo Jousting... and each Paladin will be able to put armor and a helmet on their bird as they ride into battle.

[NFaelivrin]

That makes no literary sense, as for insulting I have an idea. Lets remove Paladin from combat instances and put them where they belong (that means you as well).... TO THE JOUSTING ARENA!
Yes content exclusively for Paladins! Chocobo Jousting... and each Paladin will be able to put armor and a helmet on their bird as they ride into battle.

Go to bed dude, you're drunk.