Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[Lyth]

Both are equally annoying to use but the funny thing with DRK is that stance you are supposed to "dance" is the one with GCD, why Darkside is oGCD when you dont want to drop that shit ever in the firstplace?

As you know, on DRK, having good MP management generally translates into more damage output. Any time that you are unable to attack a target (because of an invulnerable boss, unspawned adds, or travelling between pulls) for a series of MP ticks greater than the activation cost of Darkside, you turn it off until you have an available target.

This is in contrast with Grit, Shield Oath, and Defiance, wherein the main cost is in activation, rather than maintenance (a GCD loss and MP loss, or a net HP loss.) Each tank has their own way of offsetting these costs in fight-specific ways. One of the highlights of DRK is that your stances are independent of each other, resulting in two degrees of freedom to shift through.

[Synestra]

As you know, on DRK, having good MP management generally translates into more damage output. Any time that you are unable to attack a target (because of an invulnerable boss, unspawned adds, or travelling between pulls) for a series of MP ticks greater than the activation cost of Darkside, you turn it off until you have an available target.

Yeah and thats why it would be better that Darkside was GCD and Grit was oGCD, not the other way around.

[Syzygian]

Yeah and thats why it would be better that Darkside was GCD and Grit was oGCD, not the other way around.

The important part for most people is oGCD: turning it off.

[Dante_V]

Both are equally annoying to use but the funny thing with DRK is that stance you are supposed to "dance" is the one with GCD, why Darkside is oGCD when you dont want to drop that shit ever in the firstplace?

The reason for this is likely what you stated. If the intended mechanic is to switch or they are expecting people to do that then they want to have a penalty associated with that so you cannot just use grit as a "cooldown" and then switch out immediately without incurring a dps loss. The reason that darkside is OGCD is because people won't be stance dancing it and therefore a penalty associated with it would be pointless.

[Brian_]

Grit has a much smoother transition than Oaths. Anybody saying otherwise is delusional.

You basically do the exact same thing DRKs do except you need to blow a GCD to swap to Sword Oath. You are dropping Shield Oath through buff cancelling as not to break your combos but still cancel the damage penalty, and at a time where it's more convenient, you activate Sword Oath. It's a DPS loss to wait through RB + GB or SB + RA/RH in Shield Oath rather than drop Shield Oath through buff cancelling after a FB and then activate Sword Oath after the GB or RA/RH.

So, in the end, how you transition from Shield to Sword is constantly changing. You can either straight swap if things work out with your GCDs and combos or you have to drop and swap if they don't. In the end, you have an incredibly clunky stance dancing situation.

[Disc]

Oaths are worse than dropping Grit. Applying Grit is equal to applying an Oath.

-Former Paladin

Applying Grit is equal to applying Oaths, yes. But having that GCD eaten by default makes swapping between the two much smoother than dropping Grit & scrambling to hit your GCD. Especially when playing a job with numerous low delay oGCDs. Not blowing 1700+MP every 7 seconds also makes swapping between them require a lot less attention than Grit.

Paladin is a user friendly job, that is not a bad thing.

Grit has a much smoother transition than Oaths. Anybody saying otherwise is delusional.

You basically do the exact same thing DRKs do except you need to blow a GCD to swap to Sword Oath. You are dropping Shield Oath through buff cancelling as not to break your combos but still cancel the damage penalty, and at a time where it's more convenient, you activate Sword Oath. It's a DPS loss to wait through RB + GB or SB + RA/RH in Shield Oath rather than drop Shield Oath through buff cancelling after a FB and then activate Sword Oath after the GB or RA/RH.

So, in the end, how you transition from Shield to Sword is constantly changing. You can either straight swap if things work out with your GCDs and combos or you have to drop and swap if they don't. In the end, you have an incredibly clunky stance dancing situation.

Your potential for bonus potency drops noticeably every decisecond after that GCD refreshes. How many deciseconds does it take you to register ShOath falling? The average reaction time alone is around 200ms. How many more to hit the WS? If you take so much as 1 second after the GCD refreshes to launch your next WS, you have lost over 41% of a GCD. The average PLD GCD is 230~250 potency. 41% on the low end would be 94 potency, rounded down. That would knock SB+RA down to an 8 potency gain. Any weaker combinations(single RA) or any extra time taken would result in a flat loss of potency. That's not even touching on any potentially delayed oGCDs.

Based on Shadowplay recordings I found it to be a pure DPS loss in raid. Where do yours put it? Have you really not found it to be a bother with any oGCDs?

[Violette]

I think what we can agree on is that both transitions are absolutely disgusting compared to the warrior's stance dancing capabilities. Maybe if changing into stances also granted a small (10-15s) buff?

i.e. SwO activated: 10% crit up for 15s
ShO activated: 10% damage reduction for 10s
Grit activated: 20% parry up for 10s

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

I think what we can agree on is that both transitions are absolutely disgusting compared to the warrior's stance dancing capabilities. Maybe if changing into stances also granted a small (10-15s) buff?

i.e. SwO activated: 10% crit up for 15s
ShO activated: 10% damage reduction for 10s
Grit activated: 20% parry up for 10s

Well honestly I wouldn't feel right about being handed stuff for just doing my job in one way or another. From the Paladin perspective I'm punished way too harshly for, in a literal sense, just lowering my shield a little. I'd be okay with losing a GCD if my combo didn't drop and I also didn't lose MP (how does this even make sense to them, I'm not casting a spell lol.) The clunk involved with switching stances, at least with sword and shield, I can understand from a real life perspective. Depending on the size of the shield it makes sense that you'd have to stop your own inertia in order to either attack or defend (especially in the sense of a buckler.......those things are TINY.)

EDIT: I just realized this can be misconstrued in relation to my "What happens when...." thread if someone wanted to troll for a reaction. Here I am saying that I shouldn't be rewarded for just moving from stance to stance. If it was changed to be so, all three tanks would have to have something like that or it would just be another reason to bicker.

[Violette]

snip

It's just small ways to reward playing the class to it's fullest.

Only using grit the entire fight can be a large loss in dps, so can only using ShO.

By rewarding smart play with small time buffs for using the different stances it would raise the skill cap for a class without enforcing a risk/reward system like the warrior.

[Brannigan]

I think Grit is worse than the paladin stances but I also think those abilities you posted about on page 15 are actually pretty bad because of long cooldowns, limited opportunity for use (sup Cover and Tempered Will), or weak effects (awareness).

If Tempered Will was on warrior it'd generate a wrath stack or something so that you could at least use it in every fight rather than just having it sit there staring at you like some kind of dead fish except for during the one fight per raid tier where there's a knockback (and two of them happen within 3 minutes so you only get to block one.) Cover you can use but the benefit is often questionable. The rare fight where it has a clear benefit (T13, savage Rafflesia) is great, but there aren't enough of them.

Basically all that shit needs an additional line of text in their tooltip so that they do something (mostly) every fight. Dark Knight and Monk get to use their gap closers for free DPS when they don't need to close any gaps. Why can't I hit Tempered Will to make some stupid dumb effect happen?