Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[jmdude]

Edit: If you actually think it's only about the DPS problems, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about and need to go read a bit more on the problems made obviously clear by a lot of top raiders on various forums. Then git gud at the other tanks.

It's as if you didn't read my post at all.

[JonBigwood]

I think the developers wanted the Dark Knight class to be a success and that many people tried the new class to the end. Edit: job, not class.

This has made PLD in disadvantage right now for the difficult raids. It takes time to balance jobs and 3 jobs are probably more difficult to balance than 2. Warrior was in disadvantage for some time, and changes were made. Let's see what comes.

[Alahra]

The fact that they're waiting until 3.1 still has me curious. I'm wondering at the moment if they're not also making changes to all three tanks in some fashion (perhaps a broader system change like adjustments to Fending accessories?) and so they need more time to test the Paladin changes in relation to those other changes. It wouldn't do them any good to put in PLD changes now if they're planning more general tank changes in 3.1, since they would have to re-evaluate again at that time.

It was just a thought, and probably a pipe dream, though.

In regard to PLDs clearing at later gear levels--I'm really hoping the battle content team takes a different approach for future raid content. They seem to have set the bar for item level for Savage far too high--PLD may in fact seem fine to them if they're balancing AS4 around 210 or something. They should probably be tuning things at a lower expected item level than they are now.

[MrTherm]

I'm surprised they aren't making adjustments prior to 3.1, since they've already adjusted several classes.

They probably dont have a patch 3.08 or 3.09 scheduled/planed and cant justify a patch to do some adjustments to a job that really isnt broken. Paladin does have some minor balancing issues but still works extremely well in a lot of places. AST did not work well for anything.

[Seku]

They probably dont have a patch 3.08 or 3.09 scheduled/planed and cant justify a patch to do some adjustments to a job that really isnt broken. Paladin does have some minor balancing issues but still works extremely well in a lot of places. AST did not work well for anything.

Actually AST got through the new primals, roulette, and Alexander normal just fine, which are the only other "places". It fell flat on it's face the same place PLD did, savage.

[Kaisinel]

dps checks on Savage are big yes we all know this. But I don't know about the people complaining about the lack of PLD dps but when I examine 90% of the Paladins on my server some of which are actively arguing and calling for changes in shouts in idleshire they are all rocking the vit accessories. Pretty sure they aren't sword oathing at all either when they can. Part of he problem with tank dps is a lot of the tanks I see don't play as aggressive as they can and then say how broken the job is. Any OT warrior I see is rocking full melded 150 accessories with a few 210s thrown in the mix. I'm not saying you guys here are doing that in any way but from what I see on my sever the people complaining about the dps issue are the ones going VIT spec.

[MeeYow]

Inability to clear content until weeks later where everyone is already geared up to off set the lack of natural ability the job has is just as bad, as from I am reading, that's what merited changes to WAR, the inability to clear endgame raids on a consistent basis until everyone else was geared up if at all.. It has nothing to do with competition at this point, but just the ability to actually clear something w/o holding your group back for weeks to months and being pigeon holed into another class that you don't like.

Honestly, no matter what they do to PLD, as long as PLD doesn't get any higher mitigation through additional traits for natural defense or cool downs, higher DPS to match WAR and DRK, some crazy utility that raid comps can't live w/o, or SE produce fights that revolve around consistent heavy damage to take advantage of our shield which would be bad game design as it would be the same as taking advantage of parry, WAR/DRK is going to win due to the higher damage output.

You can have too much DEF and Curing. That limit has always been if you can live through the strongest attack and a hit or two after, you're good. Any more DEF or Curing after that is a waste. All tanks can live through predictable tank busters. If PLD mitigation for physical attacks were that great, a lot of groups would have started reincorporating them back in A3, where physical damage was present and consistent enough. They haven't.

Nothing you said is wrong, but I would appreciate if you quote the entirety of a sentence. They exist for a reason and you skipped out the part that pretty much summarises something very similar to what you are trying to say without going into the same level of detail. The only difference is I am discussing the causes and you are discussing the symptoms.

Blood tanking vs mitigation was a single crippling flaw in an otherwise strong class, wheras PLDs problem is it is poor across single target and aoe dps, support, single target and aoe emnity, mitigation sustainability and more. It is many things, not just one big one that screams at you.

That said, all of the issues can be addressed more simply though, by changing numbers such as cooldowns and cast times, or moving abilities on and off of GCD, rather than fundamentally re-purposing what they do as SE did with inner beast, vengance and storms path.

Competition is always important because balance is relative. WAR and DRK are providing the benchmark for PLD to reach, and it doesn't. If there wasn't that benchmark where would PLD be?

Also at no point did I say it didn't need changes, which you seem to be under the impression of. I have proposed more (viable) changes than most.

Also, given that shields are something in the region of 3-6% (depending on iLv, currently at about 4% I believe, less for towers which we will want for shelltron and physical busters) and out of shelltron, RNG long term mitigation on physical damage, there is no way of tailoring fights to make Shields a significant component, shield blocking is just too weak and to make it a true advantage would require a major buff. Given that shield is so minor, fights with frequent high damage bursts, i.e., absolutely unclearable without frequent mitigation cooldowns will make Inner Beast king and leave PLD and DRK on the sidelines because eventually their cooldowns run out, and especially PLD's garunteed cooldowns run out fast.

[Seku]

RNG long term mitigation on physical damage, there is no way of tailoring fights to make Shields a significant component, shield blocking is just too weak and to make it a true advantage would require a major buff. Given that shield is so minor, fights with frequent high damage bursts, i.e., absolutely unclearable without frequent mitigation cooldowns

AS2, the only fight in current savage that people carry a PLD with them and don't view them as a hindrance, and first runs in T4 in BCoB say hi to your disagreement of tailoring fights to make shields a significant component.

If the frequent attacks were tank busters, then IB would win. If their high damage consistent auto-attacks, I see shield being favorable in the long run. But you also add in shieldtron now and PLD takes it. But IB would do just fine, which is all you really need to begin with, which is further justified by the utility of -10% damage or damage increase for slashing weapons and high personal damage that WAR can bring.

All I'm trying to say is the dps checks are high on purpose so you really shouldn't say a job is bad because it needs high level gear by design that's how it was created.

When you require the entire raid and the job in question to be roughly 10 ilevels away from the gear you're getting from the content you're trying to clear, yet anyone else can do it. Something is wrong with the job.

[ArdorGrey]

To all the people bringing up warrior salt in 2.0: I'm not talking about the state War was in at launch. I'm talking about AFTER the fixes. It's like a game of telephone spiraling further and further from what was originally said. Anima further discussed it directly after my post.

[Brannigan]

To all the people bringing up warrior salt in 2.0: I'm not talking about the state War was in at launch. I'm talking about AFTER the fixes. It's like a game of telephone spiraling further and further from what was originally said. Anima further discussed it directly after my post.

Warrior was 100% fine after the fixes and could solo tank anything that a paladin could. If you want to whine about the stupid community not doing it, that's fine, but warrior's defensive weakness was a myth. I also think some of what Anima posted is a little dubious (paladin as a required MT for bahamut prime when switching off was way better) but whatever.