Moment of Truth: How do you really feel

[Azurymber]

Fact is, it's not as simple as writing just any old algorithm. However they proceed, they don't get another bite at the apple. Not only do they have to deal with the legacy of how FFXIV used to work, they also have to keep the game running and working during any changes while holding on to the few players still kicking around, and they have to end up making a world-class MMO in one shot which will attract enough players (in spite of all the bad press) to keep the game alive (and oh yeah, they better hurry up, because they're losing money by the day).

So it's not just a question of development, but of marketing as well. They have to rediscover what the global audience expects from their MMO in terms of basics (which FFXIV missed the boat on), and what would be attractive in terms of innovation (which FFXIV needs to attract new players).

Maybe you could write a battle system in five hours, but those five hours could be biggest mistake of your life if no one particularly cares for what you've created and the game's re-release flops from your inept system. You haven't done the hard work to investigate what works in terms of enjoyment and playability, nor have you considered the long term strategy (players will want to quest for advanced weapons and armor over the years, which you have to accommodate without breaking the game). Taking out your crayon, and saying "See? Battle algorithms are easy! What's the hold-up?" just shows ignorance to what's at stake here. You're not going to suffer the consequences of letting millions of dollars of development go up in smoke if you get it wrong, are you?

Sorry if this is harsh, but posing as an expert when you're really not is very upsetting, especially when you have the chutzpah to claim that solving FFXIV's many problems is easy. Anyone who has ever worked on a project even a fraction the size of this knows that it is not. Going back to the drawing board after a release is pretty much the worst-case scenario for any developer, and for a project as big as FFXIV, it's especially horrifying.

If you really did any substantial business application programming with Use-Case scenarios and UML outlines, you of all people would know that, or at least, could appreciate it. And if you really worked a real job, you wouldn't be begging for FFXIV to take up more of your time with more walking and slow airship rides.

It just doesn't add up. Where does an economist/psychologist/software engineer/marketing professional/game developer/neurologist/international political analyst/anthropologist find the time to do all that... and troll these forums?

I don't know how you can even claim i troll since im one of the few people posting guides to help people make more of the game.

and im not saying its easy to fix the game. but fixing a battle system is in no way difficult. It also can be fixed so that its quite easy to readjust it quickly in case things don't work.

everything your talking about is the design and not the code. Yes the design and planning takes time. 6 months though is pushing it. They could easily put together a system in a few weeks which can be -CHANGED- and then test it and change it for 2 months till they get it right. Instead they have spent 8-ish months planning, and -still- haven't implemented it.

If you seriously think changing a formula that involves attack, strength, mob defence and a few other variable takes 8 months you are kidding yourself.

FFXIs Damage Formulas

You can't tell me it takes a year to plan and pull that off.....

[AmyRae]

I don't know how you can even claim i troll since im one of the few people posting guides to help people make more of the game.

and im not saying its easy to fix the game. but fixing a battle system is in no way difficult. It also can be fixed so that its quite easy to readjust it quickly in case things don't work.

everything your talking about is the design and not the code. Yes the design and planning takes time. 6 months though is pushing it. They could easily put together a system in a few weeks which can be -CHANGED- and then test it and change it for 2 months till they get it right. Instead they have spent 8-ish months planning, and -still- haven't implemented it.

If you seriously think changing a formula that involves attack, strength, mob defence and a few other variable takes 8 months you are kidding yourself.

FFXIs Damage Formulas

You can't tell me it takes a year to plan and pull that off.....

Listen, you should just stick with being an economist/psychologist/neurologist/marketing analyst/international spy/starship captain because you're out of your element here.

FFXIV isn't made with a browser scripting language where you make a little change, hit refresh, and it's off for cucumber sandwiches and actionless MMO playing while you bill your client for the hour.

The code part is the easy part (and keep in mind there are probably dozens, if not hundreds of developers involved here). It's all about the design. And it's hard enough getting the design right when you can start fresh. FFXIV is a minefield of bad legacy code that has to keep operating even while they fundamentally change how it all works down to the most basic systems, and periodically keep 100% functional updates coming out so what's left of their player base doesn't get bored and walk out for good. It took five years to make FFXIV. It's going to be awhile to fix it, and fix it right.

You can change a battle formula easy. But can you make one that will be a hit with players and last over all the updates the game will go through over the next 10 years? That's where it gets complicated. You have to plan, test, revise the plan more, test the plan more, and back and forth even while deciding where you want the game to end up so you can have exciting expansions that can use the system you're developing. And, oh yeah, 90% of the game doesn't work very well, so you have to fix all that along the way too. And, oh yeah, we'd better have some themed events and new content to keep the players happy, too. There's no way in hell this is a simple task. Yoshi-P does not get very much sleep, I can assure you.

[Azurymber]

Listen, you should just stick with being an economist/psychologist/neurologist/marketing analyst/international spy/starship captain because you're out of your element here.

FFXIV isn't made with a browser scripting language where you make a little change, hit refresh, and it's off for cucumber sandwiches and actionless MMO playing while you bill your client for the hour.

The code part is the easy part (and keep in mind there are probably dozens, if not hundreds of developers involved here). It's all about the design. And it's hard enough getting the design right when you can start fresh. FFXIV is a minefield of bad legacy code that has to keep operating even while they fundamentally change how it all works down to the most basic systems, and periodically keep 100% functional updates coming out so what's left of their player base doesn't get bored and walk out for good. It took five years to make FFXIV. It's going to be awhile to fix it, and fix it right.

You can change a battle formula easy. But can you make one that will be a hit with players and last over all the updates the game will go through over the next 10 years? That's where it gets complicated. You have to plan, test, revise the plan more, test the plan more, and back and forth even while deciding where you want the game to end up so you can have exciting expansions that can use the system you're developing. And, oh yeah, 90% of the game doesn't work very well, so you have to fix all that along the way too. And, oh yeah, we'd better have some themed events and new content to keep the players happy, too. There's no way in hell this is a simple task. Yoshi-P does not get very much sleep, I can assure you.

or you know.... you can just make a dynamic system with variables that you can tweak overtime to get right.
So if they are wrong, go into a database, change some variables or numbers or w/e, test it.

there's no reason why the design should take more than 2 months. -Especially- what has been implemented so far.
I'm sure yoshi-p doesn't sleep much and works very hard but it doesn't change the fact that something other companies have done quite quickly is taking a long time for SE to do.

And you can whiteknight all you want, but in a competitive market you need to be competitive and so far this game isn't.

[Murugan]

This message is hidden because Azurymber is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

Well I disagree with what you said above. I also think that your posting history doesn't inspire confidence that you know more about directing game development than someone who does it professionally. What I'm trying to say I guess is that I don't consider you an authority on the subject. Unfortunately that seems to be all you use as a basis for any of your posts.

Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone like that who makes such ridiculous assertions about how they think games are developed, or the video game industry works, when they provide no evidence/support for their argument other than personal conjecture.

When I read your posts my first thought would just be to sort of bow my head in disbelief and massage my aching forehead. Maybe there is some internet meme that more easily expresses that reaction, I don't know.

[AmyRae]

And you can whiteknight all you want, but in a competitive market you need to be competitive and so far this game isn't.

I'm not whiteknighting for anyone. I'll be the first to tell you the development efforts to save FFXIV could seriously be a lost cause. The odds are very much against the development team to make something that doesn't alienate what few FFXI players straggle over (and even among them there isn't universal agreement on hardcore and casual content) while being universally appealing to a broader audience. And all this in the face of a Metacritic score that currently gives FFXIV a 49 out of 100, which will be the first number anyone considering the PS3 version will see when they look up information about the game before it launches (if they didn't already know).

However, that doesn't mean you can't respect the monumental task this is and the tirelessly enthusiastic face the developers have put on while they face it (even though on the inside, they are probably very tired). If they pull it off, it would be amazing. And it would be amazing because it's so damn hard to see how they could make it.

It's an underdog story that might not work out, but I'm sure everyone around here would be happy if it did.

[Colino]

It's an underdog story that might not work out, but I'm sure everyone around here would be happy if it did.

I'm with you, but I just wish there was a way to know how this story will end, so I can either keep investing my time and thoughts into this game (because I am willing to play it 8+ years if it does turn out as good as it can be) or just move on and try my best to forget about it.

[Azurymber]

I'm not whiteknighting for anyone. I'll be the first to tell you the development efforts to save FFXIV could seriously be a lost cause. The odds are very much against the development team to make something that doesn't alienate what few FFXI players straggle over (and even among them there isn't universal agreement on hardcore and casual content) while being universally appealing to a broader audience. And all this in the face of a Metacritic score that currently gives FFXIV a 49 out of 100, which will be the first number anyone considering the PS3 version will see when they look up information about the game before it launches (if they didn't already know).

However, that doesn't mean you can't respect the monumental task this is and the tirelessly enthusiastic face the developers have put on while they face it (even though on the inside, they are probably very tired). If they pull it off, it would be amazing. And it would be amazing because it's so damn hard to see how they could make it.

It's an underdog story that might not work out, but I'm sure everyone around here would be happy if it did.

well i completely agree with that, and I'm not trying to argue they don't work hard or suck at their job. I realize how difficult a lot of the code must be. Its just specifically the damage system that has really confused me because that should be the easiest part to fix, and fixing it all at once would be a lot more efficient then fixing it 4 times and re-balancing the world -each- time.