Moment of Truth: How do you really feel

[AmyRae]

1. Incredibly slow when compared to many other games. Although I am not a fan of Rift, I did play it when it launched and they were patching things in record time. It was a good example of how fast changes, bug fixes, and so on can happen with the correct team of people in place.

2. Some of the changes have been obvious wins, some of them questionable. Overall at this point, looking back of the history of implemented changes, it feels to me like there is no clear cut direction anymore. Feels more like they are making it up as they go without a real clear picture of what the finish line looks like. I understand they have posted an extensive list of planned changes, but they do not feel cohesive to me, i.e. I don't feel like the planned changes result in a well thought out game.

3. Given the bad PR, the current population with it free to play, and the patch rate, that by the time this game is even close to being competitive with a current generation title as far as interface, content, and so on, that it will be 2 to 3 generations behind the curve. It already feels behind the current generation in almost every way except for character models.

4. I don't expect this game to ever be as successful as FFXI, and it is for the most part a niche game. I do not think this game will enjoy a very long life span, I just don't think it is sustainable. I imagine if SE ever does move it to a subscription model, that it will close within one year of that time.

5. The changes overall feel like the wrong direction for me personally, but I think many people like what the developers are doing with the game. I am still looking for the fun factor myself, as none of the current content, or original systems are particularly engaging for me.

6. I think their focus has been very misplaced throughout the entire life of the game when it comes to what they have changed. It definitely feels like the game was in ICU when it was released, and everything they have done up to this point has been emergency surgery just to keep it going. None of the changes that have been made feel fleshed out and none of the core issues have really been resolved. The client/server interface, user interface, and general lack of basic mmorpg features should have been addressed first. This is my view. It may differ from yours.

I won't answer all 6 questions, but I will comment on your self-response.

FFXIV couldn't make enough money in its launched state. Option A would have been to cut the losses and let FFXIV die a dishonorable death. Option B would be to give it one last chance with a revamp that was good enough to haul in a substantial PS3 crowd.

They chose Option B.

But Option B is going to take time. It took them 5 years to make FFXIV in the first place. A "rebooted" FFXIV was certainly going to require more time than a couple of weeks or even months to get right.

Comparing the rate of patches to what they produce in a game like Rift is not a fair comparison. Rift doesn't have to remake itself from the ground up. Their initial formula was successful enough that all they have to do is build upon it or make minor tweaks.

FFXIV is still working on the fundamentals of player combat, progression, balance, as well as further expanding on the world with new content. The workload is substantially greater; the development concerns go deep into the roots of the game. They have to repair the foundations of the game while still building on top of it (and with no margin for error... they screw this up, it's over).

You don't pay a subscription for this game for a reason. It's not worth subscribing to and they know it. If you can't accept that the game is deeply under construction, you're perfectly within your rights to pick up something else you'd enjoy better. That said, I don't know what it is the development team could do better to improve upon a money-losing game any better than they've been trying to. There's no guarantee of success, but it's a bold attempt, and hopefully one worth watching to its conclusion.

[Azurymber]

I won't answer all 6 questions, but I will comment on your self-response.

FFXIV couldn't make enough money in its launched state. Option A would have been to cut the losses and let FFXIV die a dishonorable death. Option B would be to give it one last chance with a revamp that was good enough to haul in a substantial PS3 crowd.

They chose Option B.

But Option B is going to take time. It took them 5 years to make FFXIV in the first place. A "rebooted" FFXIV was certainly going to require more time than a couple of weeks or even months to get right.

Comparing the rate of patches to what they produce in a game like Rift is not a fair comparison. Rift doesn't have to remake itself from the ground up. Their initial formula was successful enough that all they have to do is build upon it or make minor tweaks.

FFXIV is still working on the fundamentals of player combat, progression, balance, as well as further expanding on the world with new content. The workload is substantially greater; the development concerns go deep into the roots of the game. They have to repair the foundations of the game while still building on top of it (and with no margin for error... they screw this up, it's over).

You don't pay a subscription for this game for a reason. It's not worth subscribing to and they know it. If you can't accept that the game is deeply under construction, you're perfectly within your rights to pick up something else you'd enjoy better. That said, I don't know what it is the development team could do better to improve upon a money-losing game any better than they've been trying to. There's no guarantee of success, but it's a bold attempt, and hopefully one worth watching to its conclusion.

I'm betting if this was Bioware fixing up the game, it would be a shining star right now.
No offence to the dev team or anything but theres no way it takes 6 months to rebalance a battle system as simple as the one in FFXIV. As a programmer I can honestly write out an entire mathematical balanced system within about 5 hours that could be applied to this game tomorrow. And I have done a simple version of one in multiple other threads.
This dev team dropped the ball. My only hope is that they invested their resources heavily in things we have not seen yet (ex. hamlet battles) which will revolutionize the game.

[Cid]

As a programmer..

Wow, azury, you're a programmer, and

I'm an economist irl..

and also you

i run a marketing business..

Plus still manages to find time to make 750+ useful threads/posts in this forums none of which are useless whatsoever. You gotta know that you're my hero, ...how do you do it?

[Azurymber]

Wow, azury, you're a programmer, and



and also you



Plus still manages to find time to make 750+ useful threads/posts in this forums none of which are useless whatsoever. You gotta know that you're my hero, ...how do you do it?

I specialize in E-marketing, my business's focus is on e-marketing. E-marketing requires programming. If you want to sell your product, I help make a site, set up social media, create "apps" for your product, etc. Much of that require actionscript, java, etc. I've programmed games before as well, both for fun and for school.
I have an economics + politics specialist degree and do economic + political consulting, usually for small businesses who would like to expand into international markets.
My business is successful because I mix these fields which very few other people do (thus having few competitors + being able to work at my leisure)
So yes, I'm an economist, I run a E-marketing business, and I program for said business.

If you read through all of my past posts you would find ones where I actually wrote out code (which would essentially prove i know how to program)
and ones where I went into detailed economic analysis of the games market (essentially proving i know economics)
o_O

edit: and just so no one calls me on it. My "interest" in economics is manly neuro/behavioural economics which uses neuroscience experiments to better predict human behaviour relative to economics and trade and decision-making. So I know a lot about neuroscience, behavioural psychology and cultural anthropology.

And i like your sarcastic remark essentially saying my posts are useless but at least I -try- to make this game more enjoyable for others (see the 3000+ word solo guide and 7000+ word lore guide in my sig, as well as my past solo guide from release, my botany for profit guide, and my exploring Eorzea guide)

[AmyRae]

I'm betting if this was Bioware fixing up the game, it would be a shining star right now.
No offence to the dev team or anything but theres no way it takes 6 months to rebalance a battle system as simple as the one in FFXIV. As a programmer I can honestly write out an entire mathematical balanced system within about 5 hours that could be applied to this game tomorrow. And I have done a simple version of one in multiple other threads.
This dev team dropped the ball. My only hope is that they invested their resources heavily in things we have not seen yet (ex. hamlet battles) which will revolutionize the game.

Fact is, it's not as simple as writing just any old algorithm. However they proceed, they don't get another bite at the apple. Not only do they have to deal with the legacy of how FFXIV used to work, they also have to keep the game running and working during any changes while holding on to the few players still kicking around, and they have to end up making a world-class MMO in one shot which will attract enough players (in spite of all the bad press) to keep the game alive (and oh yeah, they better hurry up, because they're losing money by the day).

So it's not just a question of development, but of marketing as well. They have to rediscover what the global audience expects from their MMO in terms of basics (which FFXIV missed the boat on), and what would be attractive in terms of innovation (which FFXIV needs to attract new players).

Maybe you could write a battle system in five hours, but those five hours could be biggest mistake of your life if no one particularly cares for what you've created and the game's re-release flops from your inept system. You haven't done the hard work to investigate what works in terms of enjoyment and playability, nor have you considered the long term strategy (players will want to quest for advanced weapons and armor over the years, which you have to accommodate without breaking the game). Taking out your crayon, and saying "See? Battle algorithms are easy! What's the hold-up?" just shows ignorance to what's at stake here. You're not going to suffer the consequences of letting millions of dollars of development go up in smoke if you get it wrong, are you?

Sorry if this is harsh, but posing as an expert when you're really not is very upsetting, especially when you have the chutzpah to claim that solving FFXIV's many problems is easy. Anyone who has ever worked on a project even a fraction the size of this knows that it is not. Going back to the drawing board after a release is pretty much the worst-case scenario for any developer, and for a project as big as FFXIV, it's especially horrifying.

If you really did any substantial business application programming with Use-Case scenarios and UML outlines, you of all people would know that, or at least, could appreciate it. And if you really worked a real job, you wouldn't be begging for FFXIV to take up more of your time with more walking and slow airship rides.

It just doesn't add up. Where does an economist/psychologist/software engineer/marketing professional/game developer/neurologist/international political analyst/anthropologist find the time to do all that... and troll these forums?

[Azurymber]

Fact is, it's not as simple as writing just any old algorithm. However they proceed, they don't get another bite at the apple. Not only do they have to deal with the legacy of how FFXIV used to work, they also have to keep the game running and working during any changes while holding on to the few players still kicking around, and they have to end up making a world-class MMO in one shot which will attract enough players (in spite of all the bad press) to keep the game alive (and oh yeah, they better hurry up, because they're losing money by the day).

So it's not just a question of development, but of marketing as well. They have to rediscover what the global audience expects from their MMO in terms of basics (which FFXIV missed the boat on), and what would be attractive in terms of innovation (which FFXIV needs to attract new players).

Maybe you could write a battle system in five hours, but those five hours could be biggest mistake of your life if no one particularly cares for what you've created and the game's re-release flops from your inept system. You haven't done the hard work to investigate what works in terms of enjoyment and playability, nor have you considered the long term strategy (players will want to quest for advanced weapons and armor over the years, which you have to accommodate without breaking the game). Taking out your crayon, and saying "See? Battle algorithms are easy! What's the hold-up?" just shows ignorance to what's at stake here. You're not going to suffer the consequences of letting millions of dollars of development go up in smoke if you get it wrong, are you?

Sorry if this is harsh, but posing as an expert when you're really not is very upsetting, especially when you have the chutzpah to claim that solving FFXIV's many problems is easy. Anyone who has ever worked on a project even a fraction the size of this knows that it is not. Going back to the drawing board after a release is pretty much the worst-case scenario for any developer, and for a project as big as FFXIV, it's especially horrifying.

If you really did any substantial business application programming with Use-Case scenarios and UML outlines, you of all people would know that, or at least, could appreciate it. And if you really worked a real job, you wouldn't be begging for FFXIV to take up more of your time with more walking and slow airship rides.

It just doesn't add up. Where does an economist/psychologist/software engineer/marketing professional/game developer/neurologist/international political analyst/anthropologist find the time to do all that... and troll these forums?

I don't know how you can even claim i troll since im one of the few people posting guides to help people make more of the game.

and im not saying its easy to fix the game. but fixing a battle system is in no way difficult. It also can be fixed so that its quite easy to readjust it quickly in case things don't work.

everything your talking about is the design and not the code. Yes the design and planning takes time. 6 months though is pushing it. They could easily put together a system in a few weeks which can be -CHANGED- and then test it and change it for 2 months till they get it right. Instead they have spent 8-ish months planning, and -still- haven't implemented it.

If you seriously think changing a formula that involves attack, strength, mob defence and a few other variable takes 8 months you are kidding yourself.

FFXIs Damage Formulas

You can't tell me it takes a year to plan and pull that off.....

[AmyRae]

I don't know how you can even claim i troll since im one of the few people posting guides to help people make more of the game.

and im not saying its easy to fix the game. but fixing a battle system is in no way difficult. It also can be fixed so that its quite easy to readjust it quickly in case things don't work.

everything your talking about is the design and not the code. Yes the design and planning takes time. 6 months though is pushing it. They could easily put together a system in a few weeks which can be -CHANGED- and then test it and change it for 2 months till they get it right. Instead they have spent 8-ish months planning, and -still- haven't implemented it.

If you seriously think changing a formula that involves attack, strength, mob defence and a few other variable takes 8 months you are kidding yourself.

FFXIs Damage Formulas

You can't tell me it takes a year to plan and pull that off.....

Listen, you should just stick with being an economist/psychologist/neurologist/marketing analyst/international spy/starship captain because you're out of your element here.

FFXIV isn't made with a browser scripting language where you make a little change, hit refresh, and it's off for cucumber sandwiches and actionless MMO playing while you bill your client for the hour.

The code part is the easy part (and keep in mind there are probably dozens, if not hundreds of developers involved here). It's all about the design. And it's hard enough getting the design right when you can start fresh. FFXIV is a minefield of bad legacy code that has to keep operating even while they fundamentally change how it all works down to the most basic systems, and periodically keep 100% functional updates coming out so what's left of their player base doesn't get bored and walk out for good. It took five years to make FFXIV. It's going to be awhile to fix it, and fix it right.

You can change a battle formula easy. But can you make one that will be a hit with players and last over all the updates the game will go through over the next 10 years? That's where it gets complicated. You have to plan, test, revise the plan more, test the plan more, and back and forth even while deciding where you want the game to end up so you can have exciting expansions that can use the system you're developing. And, oh yeah, 90% of the game doesn't work very well, so you have to fix all that along the way too. And, oh yeah, we'd better have some themed events and new content to keep the players happy, too. There's no way in hell this is a simple task. Yoshi-P does not get very much sleep, I can assure you.

[Azurymber]

Listen, you should just stick with being an economist/psychologist/neurologist/marketing analyst/international spy/starship captain because you're out of your element here.

FFXIV isn't made with a browser scripting language where you make a little change, hit refresh, and it's off for cucumber sandwiches and actionless MMO playing while you bill your client for the hour.

The code part is the easy part (and keep in mind there are probably dozens, if not hundreds of developers involved here). It's all about the design. And it's hard enough getting the design right when you can start fresh. FFXIV is a minefield of bad legacy code that has to keep operating even while they fundamentally change how it all works down to the most basic systems, and periodically keep 100% functional updates coming out so what's left of their player base doesn't get bored and walk out for good. It took five years to make FFXIV. It's going to be awhile to fix it, and fix it right.

You can change a battle formula easy. But can you make one that will be a hit with players and last over all the updates the game will go through over the next 10 years? That's where it gets complicated. You have to plan, test, revise the plan more, test the plan more, and back and forth even while deciding where you want the game to end up so you can have exciting expansions that can use the system you're developing. And, oh yeah, 90% of the game doesn't work very well, so you have to fix all that along the way too. And, oh yeah, we'd better have some themed events and new content to keep the players happy, too. There's no way in hell this is a simple task. Yoshi-P does not get very much sleep, I can assure you.

or you know.... you can just make a dynamic system with variables that you can tweak overtime to get right.
So if they are wrong, go into a database, change some variables or numbers or w/e, test it.

there's no reason why the design should take more than 2 months. -Especially- what has been implemented so far.
I'm sure yoshi-p doesn't sleep much and works very hard but it doesn't change the fact that something other companies have done quite quickly is taking a long time for SE to do.

And you can whiteknight all you want, but in a competitive market you need to be competitive and so far this game isn't.

[Murugan]

This message is hidden because Azurymber is on your ignore list.
View Post

Remove user from ignore list

Well I disagree with what you said above. I also think that your posting history doesn't inspire confidence that you know more about directing game development than someone who does it professionally. What I'm trying to say I guess is that I don't consider you an authority on the subject. Unfortunately that seems to be all you use as a basis for any of your posts.

Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone like that who makes such ridiculous assertions about how they think games are developed, or the video game industry works, when they provide no evidence/support for their argument other than personal conjecture.

When I read your posts my first thought would just be to sort of bow my head in disbelief and massage my aching forehead. Maybe there is some internet meme that more easily expresses that reaction, I don't know.

[AmyRae]

And you can whiteknight all you want, but in a competitive market you need to be competitive and so far this game isn't.

I'm not whiteknighting for anyone. I'll be the first to tell you the development efforts to save FFXIV could seriously be a lost cause. The odds are very much against the development team to make something that doesn't alienate what few FFXI players straggle over (and even among them there isn't universal agreement on hardcore and casual content) while being universally appealing to a broader audience. And all this in the face of a Metacritic score that currently gives FFXIV a 49 out of 100, which will be the first number anyone considering the PS3 version will see when they look up information about the game before it launches (if they didn't already know).

However, that doesn't mean you can't respect the monumental task this is and the tirelessly enthusiastic face the developers have put on while they face it (even though on the inside, they are probably very tired). If they pull it off, it would be amazing. And it would be amazing because it's so damn hard to see how they could make it.

It's an underdog story that might not work out, but I'm sure everyone around here would be happy if it did.