More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?

If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power. It was just choice.

Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

I see you ignored my question asking which game was this.

if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

Actually, that is vertical. Vertical means there is one best choice. Its a straight upgrade to a fight and an encounter. There is only one real choice if your fighting an ice creature you need ice armor. If your wearing fire armor you have no ice resist so you get melted. There is no other choice for you. That is bad. That is homogenizing and exactly what vertical progression does, there is no difference.

In a Horizontal System: There is no "Ice Resist" or "Fire Resist" or "Accuracy" or "Critical Mitigation".

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

Instead of "Resists and such" there are procs and effects. Each effect is "good" however there is no best effect. You choose the effect based on your own playstyle.

[SendohJin]

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

[SendohJin]

That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

so it has a ward to make up for less magic resistance and has more DPS? why would anyone use the piece that has lower DPS and just magic resistance?

there's no "real" horizontal progression game, there are many different ways to do horizontal progression. you're stuck on horizontal means absolutely no BiS which is not true.

[Ibi]

Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:

If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power.

versus

Vertical means there is one best choice.

According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:


versus


According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?

Vertical means, there is only one best choice. Would you take an item that has 100 strength, or an item that has 50 strength? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 strength.

Your fighting an ice monster. Take one that has 50 ice resist, or 100 ice resist? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 ice resistance!.

There is no difference in that. However there is a difference in these.


Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

They are all good choices. Some might be better in some fights. However they are ALL GOOD for every fight! That is true horizontal progression.

For example, picking a DPS class and choosing which one you want is an example this game has of good horizontal choice, you pick the class that suits you, there is no one class that is better for certain fights they are just different.

[Ibi]

However there is a difference in these.

Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

Or, offer 4.

12% chance on hit to deal 1200 damage.

vs

12% chance on hit to deal 1600 damage, but takes 650 life every proc.

Now you have no healing, for more damage then the healing and damage one.

Now you have another one that does even MORE damage. At the cost of life.

[SendohJin]

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

Since you don't read. I was awnsering someone else's question that wasn't about FFXIV but Horizontal Progression in general. Don't butt into a conversation if you don't understand it.

Also, are you ever going to awnser my question? Or avoid it? Which game has this magical horizontal progression you speak of?

Please awnser with FFXI.