More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

No, there really wouldn't.

The way dps checks work is you'd find the mathematically best gear for that encounter and wear it, regardless of all else.

If you don't, you aren't beating it.

We are not talking about very specific fights or the game. We are talking about Horizontal Progression in general.

Indeed, you do need enough dps to beat the encounter. However, what if the encounter also hit very hard. You need survivability as well and sustain. However, you need to also damage it fast enough to kill it.

If you and everyone go full DPS you will die to damage from the creature.
If you and everyone go full Healing and Sustain, you won't be able to do enough damage to the creature.
So, you need to form a raid of people who have both good damage, and good healing, using their play-styles. Which means some will have more healing based procs whilst others will have more damage based procs. Whilst some will like both, or mixing it up.

This means, every proc is viable.

Awnser.

If an effect or item has a huge advantage (over 30%) in a fight against every other item. Then it is no longer a choice, thus it immediately becomes vertical. Even if it started out horizontal. Vertical Progression means there is one best choice, and there are upgrades to that best choice.

Multiple ways of handling the same situation is true horizontal progression.

[Ibi]

If an effect or item has a huge advantage (over 30%) in a fight against every other item. Then it is no longer a choice, thus it immediately becomes vertical. Even if it started out horizontal. Vertical Progression means there is one best choice, and there are upgrades to that best choice.

Multiple ways of handling the same situation is true horizontal progression.

Got it. >30%: Vertical. <30%: Horizontal.

Thank you for providing your completely arbitrary line.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Got it. >30%: Vertical. <30%: Horizontal.

Thank you for providing your completely arbitrary line.

If one item is 30% or better in a situation there is no need to use it over other items because there is such a huge difference in power. Sorry you disagree, but its the truth.

Thank you for arguing with me for no point or reason. I was trying to help you understand but it seems you just want to argue, for the sake of arguing.

[Ibi]

If one item is 30% or better in a situation there is no need to use it over other items because there is such a huge difference in power. Sorry you disagree, but its the truth.

At no point did I disagree with this. It's an obvious and factual statement.

I disagreed with that being the definition of vertical progression, because you have based your definition around a completely arbitrary cut off (>30% in any single situation in the entire game).

Thank you for arguing with me for no point or reason. I was trying to help you understand but it seems you just want to argue, for the sake of arguing.

I'm debating your definition because there's no point going "SE, we might want more horizontal progression" if we can't even agree on what horizontal progression is.

The vast majority of the people in this discussion seem to have much the same concept of horizontal progression, and were discussing the relative pros and cons of it, until you came into the discussion and went "No, you're all wrong, here's what I say horizontal progression is."

[Kaurie]

This theory crafting of what qualifies as horizontal progression is interesting and all...

How about we bring it back to FFXIV and provide ideas of how we can implement horizontal progression. I think we can all agree that SE is not going to go entirely horizontal and will keep the vertical model. Therefore we want a hybrid anyway, so let's stop fussing over what is 100% horizontal and what isn't.

To add my 2 cents, I think that it would be great to have multiple gear items of the same ilvl, same weapon damage, same main stat with more 'fun' secondary stats. I was playing Diablo III the other day and had an item that randomly spawned minions around me who went and exploded on the enemy. This was one heck of a fun stat. I am not saying add this one in particular, but something more 'fun' than crit rate and det would be great.

[SendohJin]

To add my 2 cents, I think that it would be great to have multiple gear items of the same ilvl, same weapon damage, same main stat with more 'fun' secondary stats. I was playing Diablo III the other day and had an item that randomly spawned minions around me who went and exploded on the enemy. This was one heck of a fun stat. I am not saying add this one in particular, but something more 'fun' than crit rate and det would be great.

what they should add are job specific stats.

Enochian+ (increase duration)
Astral Fire+ (increase potency)
Aetherflow+ (reduce recast)
Dreadwyrm Trance+ (increase duration)
Galvanize+ (increase potency)
Blood of the Dragon+ (increase duration)
Jump+ (increase potency)
Cover+ (increase range)
etc.

when you have enough of certain pieces your rotation can even change. i would implement these things as materia (probably untradable).

[Nadirah]

the quote you responded to was for FFXIV in general.

I don't count how things "used" to be when we are discussing the present.

DPS and healers have not *needed* pentamelded accessories in HW.

And they were not desired to be so by dev team, as they "broke" Coil. I'm surprised they didn't do more to prevent it honestly.

Tanks rarely actually have the choice. If you're not getting melded stuff you get a few fending and the rest slaying until you get more gear, and then you get rid of all the fending because DPS is king.

[midnitdragoon]

End game is fine.

You want to drastically change how the game works, how about finding a game that plays the way you want to and go play that instead?

You know what happened the last time they drastically changed how a game worked?

NGE.

No thanks.

I still have burn marks from that.... But with all due respect I think the company said they did that with the full intention of bringing a better player experience.

Also didn't some guy die over that?

[Nadirah]

I still have burn marks from that.... But with all due respect I think the company said they did that with the full intention of bringing a better player experience.

Also didn't some guy die over that?

No idea. In that case it was more a "Luxas barked, we jumped" thing due to licensing, but point stands. Drastically changed gameplay model and *destroyed* the game.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Xatsh]

No idea. In that case it was more a "Luxas barked, we jumped" thing due to licensing, but point stands. Drastically changed gameplay model and *destroyed* the game.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It is broke is the problem.

Does it need to switch to ffxi-2 probably not (although I would like it, I know it will not work with the 95% casual base that makes up mmos now days), but the current model is not enough. That is the point of this post need more variety and more options endgame that are worth doing. (Worth it as in time = time for equivalent rewards).