Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Noxifer]

lol are you seriously bullshitting yourself to the point where you think healers outDPS STR tanks ? Not even close man. The only healer who can possibly outDPS a tank is the WHM during big pulls but not for very long because Holy costs a buttload of MP.

I'm not sure anyone has really said that healers outDPS strength tanks. What people have been asking, though, is, "If a VIT tank outputs X dps, his healer outputs Y dps. If a STR tank outputs A dps, his healer outputs B dps. Is A+B more than X+Y?" If the VIT tank's healer has the possibility to dps 50% of the fight (example number), but would have to forego cleric stance entirely with a STR tank -- whether it's because it's a non-pro healer or a non-pro tank. Does the extra dps from the Strength tank outweigh the fact that the healer can't dps at all? Because it's not really a matter of "STR tank does more dps than a VIT tank", and it's not "a STR tank does more dps than a healer". It's "does the increase from VIT to STR mean the total dps covers the lack of dps from the healer?"

Sure, if it's a good tank AND a good healer, the healer can still dps with a STR tank. If it's a healer who doesn't dps either way, STR tanks only brings an influx to the party's total dps. But if both tank and healer are 'average', or one of them is slightly below average (whether it's because they're not used to their role, or have other issues), would it still be only a dps benefit?

[karateorangutang]

I'm not sure anyone has really said that healers outDPS strength tanks. What people have been asking, though, is, "If a VIT tank outputs X dps, his healer outputs Y dps. If a STR tank outputs A dps, his healer outputs B dps. Is A+B more than X+Y?" If the VIT tank's healer has the possibility to dps 50% of the fight (example number), but would have to forego cleric stance entirely with a STR tank -- whether it's because it's a non-pro healer or a non-pro tank. Does the extra dps from the Strength tank outweigh the fact that the healer can't dps at all? Because it's not really a matter of "STR tank does more dps than a VIT tank", and it's not "a STR tank does more dps than a healer". It's "does the increase from VIT to STR mean the total dps covers the lack of dps from the healer?"

Sure, if it's a good tank AND a good healer, the healer can still dps with a STR tank. If it's a healer who doesn't dps either way, STR tanks only brings an influx to the party's total dps. But if both tank and healer are 'average', or one of them is slightly below average (whether it's because they're not used to their role, or have other issues), would it still be only a dps benefit?

This is where I wish I could test this. I don't have access to a parser, but in lieu of that...

I agree that tank and healer dps should be looked at as a single unit. That being said, with the exception of odd cases like PLD AoE, the tank and healer would have to be pretty bad to see a better damage output with a pure VIT tank. With rare cases set aside, tank DPS will generally outshine healer DPS. This is not to say that it can't happen, I mean anything can happen in DF, but its not a common occurrence. I run with the same healer all the time and he prefers I run STR over VIT just because dungeons are faster that way. He might get to DPS slightly less, but the damage I get to do outshines the extra damage he would do if I had a little bit more HP.

If anyone would be willing to run a few parsed runs with a healer and gear VIT for one and gear STR for another, it would be great to see the actual numbers. If I was a gambler I'd say that STR accessories are more efficient.

Additionally, I have been proven wrong before. Once upon a time I ran full VIT all the time cause I argued that it was safer. However, I geared STR one day just to try it and was shocked to see my dmg numbers inflate.... but my HP stay stable. I even remember telling my healer after the run and he didn't even notice a difference.

[Alahra]

I run with the same healer all the time and he prefers I run STR over VIT just because dungeons are faster that way. He might get to DPS slightly less, but the damage I get to do outshines the extra damage he would do if I had a little bit more HP.

In situations like that, STR is often the way to go so long as both tank and healer are comfortable with incoming damage and the like. I frequently run with an FC tank that has switched over to full STR lately and we do fine together. But random tanks in the DF are a whole different thing, sadly. It's one thing when you know the tank manages his cooldowns and have a familiar sense of how risky you can be with his health. You can't know any of that with a DF tank, though, and the experience with STR tanks especially can vary widely as a result. Lately I haven't even wanted to heal Experts anymore because it's just getting irritating.

[karateorangutang]

In situations like that, STR is often the way to go so long as both tank and healer are comfortable with incoming damage and the like. I frequently run with an FC tank that has switched over to full STR lately and we do fine together. But random tanks in the DF are a whole different thing, sadly. It's one thing when you know the tank manages his cooldowns and have a familiar sense of how risky you can be with his health. You can't know any of that with a DF tank, though, and the experience with STR tanks especially can vary widely as a result. Lately I haven't even wanted to heal Experts anymore because it's just getting irritating.

I guess so, the times I do run DF i run it in STR gear and don't generally have issues. I definitely understand that DF is a crap shoot at best. I just have a hard time believing that a bad tank is saved by the extra HP on VIT gear. If they are that bad then I don't see how it helps so significantly that it makes the run go smoothly. I'll be honest I almost never run as healer without a friend tanking, so maybe i'll have to grind out some DF on healer to see if it's really that bad.

[Dement]

A dead group is doing no DPS
A nearly dead group is also not doing much DPS
Go on VIT and allow Healers to ress one, two or even three DPS which are slepping before the AOE while you do not drop to 0 HP....
I am pretty sure the fight is still faster as with you having STR and doing DPS before a wipe....

If you can guarantee this will never happen: Go STR. But be sure if I am one of the DPS in the group I will flame you down cause of having STR instead of buying time for Healer to ress DPS (which are still making more dmg then STR tank) and avoid a wipe.

Wait... WHAT?

If you're going as a DPS and all the DPS die and the healers can't get them all up because I'm in full STR, you're going to flame me?! I will flame you just as hard back because the question legitimately would need to be asked why do you need a raise in the first place?! I have hate, I'm taking the damage, anything that can kill you is clearly highlighted by glowing ground effects. So let's re-think who is at fault before you start flaming the STR tank that was doing his job.

[Gyson]

Additionally, I have been proven wrong before. Once upon a time I ran full VIT all the time cause I argued that it was safer. However, I geared STR one day just to try it and was shocked to see my dmg numbers inflate.... but my HP stay stable. I even remember telling my healer after the run and he didn't even notice a difference.

That sounds odd. Because when I'm on a raid with a ~13k health STR tank and a tankbuster move leaves them dead or a hair's breadth from dying, I certainly notice the difference. And you can be sure the healer is frustrated at having to focus on saving that tank (with absolutely no health buffer) at the expense of losing a DPS member elsewhere.

[karateorangutang]

That sounds odd. Because when I'm on a raid with a ~13k health STR tank and a tankbuster move leaves them dead or a hair's breadth from dying, I certainly notice the difference. And you can be sure the healer is frustrated at having to focus on saving that tank (with absolutely no health buffer) at the expense of losing a DPS member elsewhere.

If your raiding currently with a tank with 13 k HP then you've got bigger problems lol. I'm running over 17 K (in tank stance) in full STR setup currently. If im taking tank busters outside of tank stance then i'm probably doing something wrong. Unless it's something that I've talked over with my healer. The only tank buster ( outside of savage) that really hits me remotely hard is discoid in A4 and that can be mitigated easily enough with cooldowns and a quick self heal. Is there a huge difference between having 22 k hp and 17 k hp? I'm thinking no as nothing hits hard enough for it to matter.

If there was stuff that required that I needed more VIT to survive it then I would, but I have not run into anything yet that needs that.

Again, I'm not stating everyone should spec strength. They should do so after they have a solid understanding of the job itself, but if played correctly it certainly does seem to be more efficient.

[Ashkendor]

That sounds odd. Because when I'm on a raid with a ~13k health STR tank and a tankbuster move leaves them dead or a hair's breadth from dying, I certainly notice the difference. And you can be sure the healer is frustrated at having to focus on saving that tank (with absolutely no health buffer) at the expense of losing a DPS member elsewhere.

If DPS are dying because you have to heal your tank up from a tankbuster then 1) they herpderped around and decided to see if the floor candy tasted like snozzberries or 2) aoe heals and/or heals due to other mechanics aren't being handled properly. Our raids are linear. Abilities happen in a certain order every single time. Unless someone screws up (in which case you should be on their ass and not the tank's) you should know exactly when it's safe to heal your DPS. In any case, a STR tank with 13k hp is probably undergeared; without the party bonus they likely have less than 12k. I have 14.3k with no party bonus and no food.

[Eye_Gore]

I just wanted to be post 400.

[Alahra]

I just have a hard time believing that a bad tank is saved by the extra HP on VIT gear.

It probably depends on what you mean by bad. A bad tank's going to be bad either way, but VIT makes things more comfortable for the healer when they're having to keep the tank alive through poor cooldown usage, eating AoEs, etc. But an average VIT tank and an average STR tank are a lot different. In my experience, a lot of tanks don't really use cooldowns aggressively on trash pulls (there's a sort of DPS mentality that you save them for the bosses, if I had to guess, which is sort of the opposite of what you should do as a tank in most dungeons), and STR tanking does tend to require fairly aggressive cooldown usage. VIT tanking doesn't really need to be that aggressive with them except for a few significant pulls from what I've seen, though. And that's where the difference is really.