Idea: Split Archer into Bard and Ranger

[RiceisNice]

What is the "LNC-esq" skill? Let me guess, Steel-speed? the selfbuff each dps jobs have already?

>A skill with no strings attached that buffs/allows access for another skill.
>A skill that grants a buff on attack, and has to be maintained by using it regularly and making sure you don't interrupt your combos.
>Shadow step, a carbon copy gap closer with a stun that's also used by dragoons and monks. To monk's defense, Shoulder Tackle used to have a range requirement, but now the two are functionally the same skills.
>More Positional.

The fact is when you take away the mudra system, you're stripping the class/job of any identity, and what you're adding makes them similar to that of a lancer without any distinction to the thief having it's own identies (unless you count in the animations...which are shared with rogue and ninjas). I don't see the point of adding a side job (or any other jobs for that matter) that plays similar to another class/job in this game setting.

And lastly, the thief class is already represented in the game as the form of rogues. The guild itself even said they were one associated as the thief, but rogue sounded better than the former as far as publicity was concerned.

[Noelzzz]

....

You are missing the point, even mudra system has the self buff thingy that all melee jobs have and future will have. At same point they need to reuse the same mechanics for jobs to maintain the balance. Anyway, i main Ninja, know the class/job pretty well and i am confident that if devs want thief could be a possibility. About Rogues the lore and the quests say they are ex thieves, so no, rogue is not thief. Lastly, don't say thief is a side job! Thief is one of the iconic Final Fantasy job :P

[RiceisNice]

...

The act of using mudra itself is a mechanic that's unique to ninja. Are you trying to say that using huton is the same as using heavy thrust?

They are EX thieves, which are still thieves by concept regardless of what they are called now. You have skills that are core to what a thief would have, down to ones like mug and hide. Hell, your rogue quests downright having you steal stuff anyway.

I'm calling it a side job because we're discussing it being implemented as a branching side job to rogue.

You're right that they need to reuse some mechanics, that's why I'd rather them focus on making new jobs that give them a new slate to work with, rather than trying to smack in branching side jobs that comes with it's own exclusive problems. Thief in concept is so already close to what rogue is (and story line wise, a rogue is basically a thief with good publicity) and trying to force it into a branching side job is just that; forcing it. There's still other ideas that have yet to be used; a melee dps that works with frontal positional, stationary melee dps, spitfire/spell blade, the list goes on. These are the sort of concepts that would require all of the abilities to give it its own identity, not just slapping on 10 skills.

[Noelzzz]

.....

I'm not saying "give me a Thief job now and do not made anything new". I actually agree with you, there other jobs with new mechanics that have priority, but then i would like to see more "side jobs" as you called them, to give more choice to players

[RiceisNice]

I'm not saying "give me a Thief job now and do not made anything new". I actually agree with you, there other jobs with new mechanics that have priority, but then i would like to see more "side jobs" as you called them, to give more choice to players

Even as a funsie thing (assuming development costs isn't a factor), it''d still be a messy implementation because of how these side jobs would be rooted to a class, making balancing an utter hell, especially if they're both going to be the same role. Just slapping on 10 abilities does a job no justice if you're trying to give it it's own identity, unless it's quite literally the only skills they'll use to perform their role (as is the case for scholar and healing)

[Eloah]

Why is everyone still debating the whole Thief Ninja discussion, I actually made a list as to why they were combined. Did anyone read it, lol. Thieves and Ninjas are "basically" cut from the same cloth, and not just in FF games in a lot of games. Assassin's Creed, Thief, hell the original Final Fantasy did the same thing with the Thief job turning into the Ninja job.

I only really see the logic behind not understanding Bard extending from Archer, that is the oddity.

But someones idea for a crossbow user was cool. Beastmaster with a crossbow sounds awesome.

Also here is that list again, lol, maybe people will look at it and drop, the thief/ninja debate, nah, lol.

EDIT: Here is the post I made in the other thread regarding Thief and Ninja within the FF Universe.

While the idea sounds nice, I doubt it would work. A Theif just wouldn't fit I a game like this. Most of the time Ninja is an upgrade to Thief, or they are just merged together.

I had some time so I compiled this list, lol?

Games where Ninja is an upgrade for Thief
Final Fantasy I
Final Fantasy V (Because the abilities can be customized)
Final Fantasy XI (Though it was optional, the common thing to do was sub Ninja onto Thief to aid them with the skill base they already had, similar to XIV now)
Final Fantasy XIV
Final Fantasy Dimensions (Both jobs have their usage, but because of customization, Ninja will be used more than Thief; though it should be noted that only half of the playable cast gets Ninja)

Games where they are seperate but equally viable
Final Fantasy III (mostly because the abilities couldn't be customized)
Final Fantasy VI (Locke and Shadow both have value to the party because of customization)
Final Fantasy XI (Because this game had no gathering/crafting classes Thiefs provided the additional out of combat skills to aid in those kinds of tasks)
Final Fantasy Tactics [every game] (Thiefs and Ninja each have different usage, though it should be noted, Ninja is unlock by using Thief)
Bravely Default (Each job has its purpose and each one can use the others moves.

Games that have only one, usually combining them
Final Fantasy IV (Edge is a Ninja but has Thief skills)
Final Fantasy VII (Yuffie is classified as a Ninja, but is played as a Thief, though because of customization anyone can be a "Thief")
Final Fantasy IX (Zidane is a Thief, and while technically a Monk, Amarant has some classic Ninja/Samurai moves)
Final Fantasy X (Rikku is the only Thief, though anyone can learn Steal, Mug, and Use, she is the only one who can steal from machines to kill them)
Final Fantasy X-2 (There is no Ninja Dressphere only a Thief)
Final Fantasy XII: IZJS (The Shikari job mimics a Ninja)
Final Fantasy XII: RW (The Ninja is a class available only to Sky Pirates, ie this games Thieves; though it should be noted they are only classified as thieves, its not the Job they hold in battle.)

[Shaddai]

Ladies and gentlemen, prepare to have your minds blown......
Why not make bard a support bow healer and ranger the dps branch. Making bard more support than healing and songs with regen/heals. In terms of healing it would probably be the weakest, but in terms of support it would be the strongest.
Other mind blown ideas:
Make marauder branch. Heavy hammer user into a tank and make war a dps. Have pug branch into mnk as dps and wrestlers as tanks. Have mnk instead of "fist of" moves why not make them triple stance dance with moves particular to each stance. Have gladiators branch into tanks being Pld and Red mages into dps. Have rogues/ drg branch into 2 dps each. Nin would be a single sword so the other branch would be dual swordsmen. Lancers can turn into drg and Holy lancermen?Have conj branch into 2 healers. Whm and bishop. Leave astro, drk, and mch but add samurai as an extra job. these will be the unique of each healer, tank, melee, ranged.

Wanna a cigarette?

[RiceisNice]

Why not make bard a support bow healer and ranger the dps branch. Making bard more support than healing and songs with regen/heals. In terms of healing it would probably be the weakest, but in terms of support it would be the strongest.

Like an astro. And you saw how that went before they had to buff their heals to be on par with WHM/SCH.

Make marauder branch. Heavy hammer user into a tank and make war a dps.

Deliverance says hi. Warrior can fulfill the role of dps just fine tthe way it is. You'd only end up making more carbon copies by adding a tanking/dps branch to marauder.

Have pug branch into mnk as dps and wrestlers as tanks. Have mnk instead of "fist of" moves why not make them triple stance dance with moves particular to each stance.

Have fun trying to do pugilist positionals while tanking.

Have gladiators branch into tanks being Pld and Red mages into dps. Have rogues/ drg branch into 2 dps each. Nin would be a single sword so the other branch would be dual swordsmen. Lancers can turn into drg and Holy lancermen?Have conj branch into 2 healers. Whm and bishop. Leave astro, drk, and mch but add samurai as an extra job. these will be the unique of each healer, tank, melee, ranged.

Wanna a cigarette?

There's a difference between meaningful ideas that have concepts behind it, and ideas that are thrown out for funies. Yours are the latter and really doesn't spur much of a discussion relate to the topic to be honest.

I still stand by this; jobs like red mage and the like should honestly be their own class rather than a branching one; having only 10 skills does the entire job no justice to give it it's own identity. They'd look herp a derp doing things like rage of haloney.

[Shaddai]

No type of creativity

I'm limited to 1000 characters per post. If you want more depth, I can provide. For your first point I don't think things are super great among healers. I like the idea of having main healers and support healers. People will always complain so that does not matter. Deliverance means nothing. It is just like monks have fist of fire. Jobs make the class what it is. You are severely underestimating the effect of changing jobs from a base class. It also will helps because you technically are lvling 2 jobs at once to provide variety. Level a tank and tell me what's the deference between before 30 and after 30 for example. Your third point makes sense I accept that I suppose a hand to hand tank would be difficult off pug unless they remove positional with lets say a lvl 30 tank stance which could remove positional req's. Try to be a little creative here. Extra jobs already provide new bases. Give SE a break in that regard.

[Noelzzz]

provide variety.

Finally someone that understand the potential of branching jobs