Yoshi P / Dev Team: FAVOR System - Please Fix This BROKEN System

[Hanmerreborn]

I am a casual fyi. Edited when I got home from here on: So I have no idea what distaste you are referring to.

Casual does not mean lazy, lower class, not willing to earn things, and it does not mean I do not like to feel a sense of accomplishment. It also has nothing to do with making millions. I get to make millions, and feel awesome when I have a special glamour. It has nothing to do with hardcore or casual.



In fact removing gates that affect the hardcore allows them to remain ahead of anyone with less time, as favors from blue scrips would allow. You can get thousands of blue scrips daily, but not if you are a casual player with less time. You would be forced to buy mats or fall behind if you were aiming for scrip gear or crafted gear. The current rgs gate slows everyone to a very casual pace. You need to craft 1-7 items daily for your scrips or all at once, your choice. You can then buy the casual gear with your scrips tokens, or use favor mats and your tokens to obtain the mats to craft non-casual gear that requires melds.

One option requires little to no effort for gear that is better then anything but the HQ crafted/melded 2 star gear. The other is the more expensive HQ 2 star melded option. Both options have very little advantage over the HQ melded non-starred lvl 60 gear.

Even with billions in gil the resources are limited since the gatherers supplying the mats are also restricted by RGS. This further gates those with more time and allows casual players time to catch up before this gear is actually needed for something.

What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.


He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

The question was why does he feel that way. His initial statement of him being a causal didn't answer that question (my quote was a full quote at the time).


But this system still benefits the hardcore, while only succeeding in breaking casuals into two lesser tiers based on a) seniority and b) luck.

For A:

A crafter/gatherer who hits 60 today can NOT catch up to those who hit 60 when red scrips hit without having to mysteriously gain a fortune to buy his way to catch up (something a fresh 60 will not have normally, funneling those towards RMT), which only positions the hardcore/early adopters even further from the gains made exploiting those who lag behind. No matter how much time commitment that person makes, they can never reach the level of other crafters merely by starting LATER.

This problem is further exacerbated with each and every subsequent patch. 3.1 starts soon, today's 60 crafter/gatherer will be woefully unprepared for the new recipes because they won't have the necessary means of acquiring the correct tools and gear to then make whatever is required to get the yellow scrips (problem 1). Yes, reds will likely be unlimited at that point, but now you're playing super catch up at the same exact moment you need to start progressing into the next tier, and for any casual player, that will cause them to lag behind in at least the first few weeks without once again, a large gold investment (problem 2).

A solution to problem 1 would be to have "rollover" maximums with all gating tokens. Instead of being 450 weekly, be a counter. You've made 410 this week, next week you can do 490 because the maximum will be 900 total gathered scrips. Those that started today, congratulations, you can turn in red scrips for 2k+ total this week should you be so inclined. This way newer players aren't punished just for starting later.

The solution to problem 2 is already done in DoW/M, give the high and low tier from the same item. You turn in a red scrip item, you get some blue scrips to catch up on your goldsmith because you focused on weaver first. Turn in a blue, get a small amount of red/yellow. Just like how you get eso/law concurrently. Yellow comes out, you can attempt to make it, hit the lowest collectibility (or miss the lowest) because you are under-geared because of problem 1, but you still get some reds so you can still gear up without having to make 3 tiers of items simultaneously.


For B:

Who knows what the hell SE is doing or going to do. As we all know, those who hit 60 CUL/Gold reaped the rewards in the scrip systems with low cost items but equal or higher gains. Yes, that's different now, but once again this goes back to early adopters in problem A.

Then, there's the fact that the recipes are seemingly completely lacking and completely missing in some instances. Imagine if 1 star gear was the current red scrip and you found out after making a full set of CUL that there would be no 2 star? Which goes back to the idea of removing them entirely, or making omnicraft sets with special glamours only for crafters (for example, there would be astral chest of crafting, and then boltmaster would be an easy to make glamour you could put on).



All in all, the system still sucks. Any hardcore player can easily get around the imposed limitations through alternate characters (much like the top raiders do currently), or through excessive amounts of gil, both of which they easily have access to. All the while punishing everyone else.

[Rath]

What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.


He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

I have been casual since mid-point of 1.0 (Had kids, what can you do!), and always been casual while posting on these forums, and I have never claimed otherwise. The fact that you disbelieve anything anyone says that is contrary to your point of view (until they post SS to shut you up, in which you say something to attempt to not be wrong.) says much about you. Would you like to see a family picture with my wife and kids? How about my work too!

Until then you spend obsessive ammounts of time dissecting their posts and getting offensive when they do not do the same to yours. Thus baiting them to play your game. When those you are doing this with stop playing your game, you move on to another topic that appears to be a "hot" topic and do it all over again. Even at times changing your view to suit the new topic. If anyone brings this up, you just say something about ignore button and make a quick lame explanation. You are the worst kind of troll, as you convince yourself you are not doing it.

Btw, your last post. the line "Mostly due to speculation however" is your "I was not wrong" from previous posts how nothing changed. Do not expect me to begin arguing with you either. I am only replying to you now at my wifes behest.

[seorin]

Well I've already seen multiple crafters with full HQ sets, and I've seen other crafters going the 180 route.

You see only those who remain, not the ones who have given up. It's called the survivorship bias, and it greatly skews your perspective. Anecdotal information is unreliable and notoriously misleading.

Furthermore, even if it works for some that doesn't mean it works for all or that it can't be improved. If a car has a potentially fatal defect in 5% of those produced, is it not worth addressing because it "works fine" for 95% of them? If someone asked for an option to make visual alerts more distinguishable for colorblind players, would you say "it works fine for me, deal with it or quit"? That kind of comment is unhelpful and disrespectful.

The system is a failure by SE's own claims. They said they wanted crafting to be accessible even for those who can't level all the classes, yet leveling them all is still the easiest part. Anyone without enough time to level multiple classes won't have enough time for red scrip either.

That's a very clear and specific indication of its failure. Do you have anything but anecdotes to support your claim that it's a success?

[Aeyis]

Well I've already seen multiple crafters with full HQ sets, and I've seen other crafters going the 180 route. I don't possibly see how they failed at both. How have they failed at both?

I've yet to see a single crafter with a full HQ set myself. Altho I do know of a few (on different servers) that have the entire left side, or right side. I imagine there's a few out there somewhere with the full set as well.

The fact that you need to point to others as example says enough, however. These people with a full set are those that worked to make it happen.


And they did, finally. ''already'' you say? Its been what, 5 weeks since the release of red scrips? And there are only a few people with full sets and not many more with half sets.

I think this sums this entire thing up nicely. Greed.

I think you assume some strange things after you removed the context. I'm the very opposite of greed. Can't for the live of me make gil when I don't have a purpose to use it for. Can hardly by bothered by anything that I don't have a purpose for, for that matter.
Kind of a result to being somewhat of a victim to sloth. (I'm too lazy)

I must admit it sounds cool tho. ''I think this sums this entire thing up nicely. Greed. '' Kind of like the line a novel or movie character says. But otherwise not related to the discussion at all.

But the funny thing is, the rate is roughly 1 2 Star Materials per Red Rowena Token. This allows you get Roughly 11 2 Star materials a week.

Your numbers are off by a large amount. If you make things up try to be a bit more..subtle about it. There's been too many posts from people with the right amount of estimates to believe you don't really know.
1 Rowena token equal to 1 2* material? And that being equal to 11 materials per week?
There are 9 tokens per week, so obviously 1:9 doesnt suddenly become 1:11.
Further more 1 Rowena token requires atleast 2 gatherers tokens to be used per different type of material. With the best result you can expect to gain enough for 6-7 materials per week.

So 6-7, not 11.

Can no one else see that their argument is just that they refuse to do the mechanic because its not giving them everything they once at the start? I've done favors every week since they've come out and I've already geared a class and a half. At this rate ill have 3-4 classes geared before 3.1. I just don't see how you can scream for more than this.

I've seen nothing to confirm you actually do all of this. If I remember correctly you barely crafted or gathered? Or was that someone else, my memory is kind of poor~
As for doing the favors. I made my servers first off-hand. Which you know, means I probably grinded my worth of favors long before you did.
Therefor the argument ''they refuse to do the mechanic because its not giving them everything they once at the start?'' doesnt really hold when used against me.
Because I did favors before it was cool to say ''I did favors''

And honestly, remember red scrips didnt come out yesterday. If it took you this long to get 1.5 classes equiped that kind of shows how slow even the ''fast alternative'' really is.
Assuming ofcourse by 1.5 classes you are referring to MH, OH, 6 left side pieces, and 5 right side pieces.

Not only that, she has quoted me and changed my words around to make it seem like I have said something I haven't. Can't even have a conversation with her without her getting personal.

Seorin is actually using arguments and proper argumentation. I can understand if you find that a frustrating experience. I do believe you are not alone in that feeling in this thread, as there are others who feel as you do.

[Ranzan]

Idk what's going on my my server but now the food items are up to 200k each! >_< The hq turn in items are over 300k too. This can't be right cause there are more up there before the patch happen but they are almost double in price.

[Ossom]

You're right, I mean 9 instead of 11. But still you will get roughly 20 Items from Rowena token, after 2 Favors that gives you about 40 items and enough to get 2 2Star materials. So after 9 Favors you have roughly enough for 9 Materials. Anymore is redundant and you can only hold them or sell them which is unnecessary unless you are greedy.

Anyways, I don't mind a debate, but Seorin has actually taken words out of my mouth and placed her words in. She quoted me, removed my text, and put her lying text in, here is an example for you below.

I dislike favors cause they are super duper hard. Ossom is Ossom.

See how annoying and stupid that is.

You guys keep talking about a Fatal Defect or the System being broken or the System needing a change well..

before you hide behind these definitions again why don't you tell us how the system is broken? Because you guys aren't explaining anything.

Crafter Red scrips takes less than an hour each week. Gathering red Scrips takes less than 5 Hours each week. If you don't have enough time for that then you weren't meant to cap it each week, just like if you don't have enough time to raid every week can you really complain about not having it beaten?

[Sibyll]

snip

The system isn't broken because Favors are too time consuming to gather or too gated by the scrip cap. It's broken because it removed tome crafting materials from the economy, which could be acquired by anyone with a DoW/DoM that could cap tomes, without offering a replacement that was as accessible. The Red Scrips require a level 60 DoL with Blue Scrip gear and a crafted HQ MH and OH to get the favor materials and a level 60 DoH to get the crafting materials. For someone that has no crafters/gatherers leveled (which believe it or not many players do not have a single max level DoH/DoL) this type of requirement is enough to deter them from participating.

The scrip system by itself isn't failing. The system just needlessly alienates non-crafters/non-gatherers from the economy completely.

Is this an adequate explanation for why the system is broken?

[seorin]

She quoted me, removed my text, and put her lying text in, here is an example for you below.

See how annoying and stupid that is.

Haha, wow, you must be pretty new to forums. I paraphrased a post of yours to show you how it looks to people who don't already agree with you. You're not contributing to the conversation, you're trying to shut it down with a personal anecdote about how much gear you have. That sounds like, "I got mine, so everyone else can stop talking now." If it bothers you that much, either contribute to the conversation or don't participate at all. Just because you don't want to talk about it doesn't mean we can't.

Also, your claim that "you guys aren't explaining anything" would look better if you weren't completely ignoring my very clear explanation above.

[Ossom]

The system isn't broken because Red Scrips are too time consuming to gather or too gated by the scrip cap. It's broken because it removed tome crafting materials from the economy, which could be acquired by anyone with a DoW/DoM that could cap tomes, without offering a replacement that was as accessible. The Red Scrips require a level 60 DoL with Blue Scrip gear and a crafted HQ MH and OH to get the favor materials and a level 60 DoH to get the crafting materials. For someone that has no crafters/gatherers leveled (which believe it or not many players do not have a single max level DoH/DoL) this type of requirement is enough to deter them from participating.

The scrip system by itself isn't failing. The system just needlessly alienates non-crafters/non-gatherers from the economy completely.

Is this an adequate explanation for why the system is broken?

Don't even think you mentioned the word Favors. So not really, I don't see how any of that pertains to the Favors needing another nerf? Along with that, that doesn't describe a broken system at all.

Red scrip turn ins requiring a minimum of Blue Scrip gear. Sounds like perfectly reasonable tiering, the same as Alex Normal requiring Law gear and Alex Savage requiring Alex Normal gear. So that isn't much of a fault of the system, it was designed to be that way. (BTW you can buy Gatherer gear from a vendor for pretty cheap if you look around for it).

Tome materials have been pretty much removed from the economy since 2.5. DoW/DoM still have ways to turn dungeons into money though, (through GC seals which are worth more now than ever).

If you expect someone to have the time to cap Red Scrips, then you should expect them to be able to hit a few nodes to get the Blue scrip gear and round up 20K for an NQ Mh/Oh. That's not the system failing at all.

@Seorin Not new, been very avid on the forums, you're the first person to change someones text around though I see, which is a little underhanded if people skim through the forums and see my picture and those words, it looks like I actually said that. Kind of rude IMHO.

Anyways Seorin, still you have yet to explain why Favors need a nerf. I'm fine with you talking about whatever you want, but the circle jerk is annoying.

"Wheres my nerfs SE and 2 Star gear is useless" over and over gets quite old.

One must do Blue Scrips to Unlock Red Scrips, one must do Red Scrips to either slowly unlock gear for their classes, or swiftly gear up their classes in time for 3.1. You have a choice, of course each way has its pros and cons. Removing the cons from one side, negates the effective use of the others, if we started nerfing favors to the point where you could get a full set in a week without having to spend extra time or money then it negates the worth of the Lv180 gear that people have already invested in.

I'm not sure why they didn't include some sort of materials for DoW/DoM to be able to buy with Law tomes, I would be totally for this, but making this the favor items would completely negate the Lv180 gear. If that's the case they should completely get rid of the Lv180 gear, refund everyone and redo the system over. But that's not gonna happen. Nerfing favors anymore though doesn't really help people gear gear any faster because they will still be capped by Rowena Crafting Tokens. I have a bunch of favors in my inventory and still have Red Gathering tokens but I have used up all the Rowena Crafting Tokens from the last 5 weeks. A nerf to favors would just put everyone in this position faster.

[Rath]

Nerfing favors anymore though doesn't really help people gear gear any faster because they will still be capped by Rowena Crafting Tokens. I have a bunch of favors in my inventory and still have Red Gathering tokens but I have used up all the Rowena Crafting Tokens from the last 5 weeks. A nerf to favors would just put everyone in this position faster.

This would affect the amount of mats available for purchase by the pure crafters. As currently they are the worst off due to such a low supply. I do not think this actually warrants a nerf though as it should balance out in time. As more gatherers finish gearing and start selling favors instead of using their tokens for gear the supply will increase. As more of the "rich" crafters finish gearing up, there will be more mats available as they stop buying as well. A nerf right now would essentially just help line the pockets of those currently selling and allow those waiting for lower prices to buy sooner. This does not seem broken to me. It just seems like a new system still in its initial stages.