Tank Balance

[Sapphidia]

Carbonx has a good point.

Threat and Damage are interlinked but in an annoyingly exponential way. For Paladins and Dark Knights, the threat combo they have (Halone or Power Slash) is the lowest potency combo, so they ideally want to do it as little as possible to max their DPS. Dark Knights have more potency and threat on theirs, so a Dark Knight might need to only open with a single power slash combo, a PLD might need to do two halones before they're comfy with a lead (depending on if you have a ninja, party dps etc).

The more DPS you do, the more inherant threat you put out and thus the less you need to rely on threat combos. You only need to do as much threat as 1 greater than the highest threat DPS in the raid, and Bonus Enmity only exists as a way to shore up the difference between your -actual- dps and their actual dps. The more dps you do, the less you need to rely on bonus enmity moves/stances to keep yourself above the dpsers.

Paladins do slightly less DPS when tanking than the other two classes, and thus need to use their threat combo slightly more on average. Their threat combo is also weaker, lower potency, lower threat and has a proportionally much bigger potency loss compared to other tanks when they could have done a Royal Authority combo instead (a PLD loses 80 potency when forced to do a Halone instead of a Royal. A DRK loses 10 potency when forced to do a Power Slash instead of a Delirium. In contrast a Warrior's Butcher combo is 20 potency more than their Storms Eye).

In contrast, not only does the Warrior do more damage naturally, but the Warrior's threat rotation (Butchers) is actually their highest potency combo and thus they WANT to do it lots. The Alternating Eye/Butchers combo means that when doing their max dps rotation they're also putting out far more threat than a Paladin doing Goring/Royal/Royal.

This is part of why there's such a big gap between dps values in practise. It's not that Paladins and Dark Knights have trouble holding threat, they don't. It's just in order to -really- minmax their DPS they sacrifice far more threat than a Warrior would. The optimal paladin rotation for dps is Goring/Royal/Royal whilst in Sword Oath, and this will NEVER hold threat off a well geared DPS doing their maximum rotation without either a.) a Ninja for threat transfer or b.) a comfortable threat lead. By reducing the requirements for that comfortable threat lead, you're technically pushing up the potential DPS ceiling for PLDs and DRKs, and bringing them a little closer to WARs.

Imagine if Royal Authority had a 5.5x enmity modifier. Halone would never be used other than as a mitigation tool to apply Str down. Paladins would be able to open pulls in Sword Oath even without a ninja, and never lose threat to anything whilst doing their max dps rotation. I'm not sure this is necessarily what we want as it takes away the skill of playing the class a bit, but it does highlight how increasing threat values can potentially increase their practical MT dps significantly.

[carbonx]

Sapphidia basically explained my point in different view, but it also brings up the interesting question of why Paladin's DPS is so low comparatively.

As I stated earlier in the thread, PLD is the only class without an ability that directly counteracts the damage penalty brought on by remaining in their tank stance. DRK has Darkside, WAR has Unchained and IB. Paladin technically has FoF, but it neither ignores the damage penalty or has close to full uptime. So, before you even get into combo potencies, PLD is already at a disadvantage in damage. This problem with DPS output is only reflected in their struggle for enmity generation.

They are forced into using Halone, lowering their DPS more. SE is currently trying to justify this unbalance in DPS through the use of party support skills, but ultimately, is it enough to warrant the loss of DPS inherent to bringing a PLD?

[Rbstr]

PLD DPS is lower because they have the shield (and, probably, the much more powerful "No Death" button).
They simply do take less physical damage, even if we can argue up and down about whether it matters or not (2.x it was certainly argued this is what made them the best, though I've never found it to be that valuable). That's worth some DPS in the dev's mind.

In addition, Authority is combo'd from Savage Blade instead of Riot Blade, which is inconsistent when compared to the other two tank classes.

This is a feature, not a problem, because Savage Blade has an enmity multiplier. It facilitates more Royal Authority when tanking and keeping hate.

[Reynhart]

Care to explain how it's a contradiction? SE wants tanking to be approachable, and at it's base level, it is.

I don't think it works to make "serious tanking" solely focusing on DPS, because it puts all tank in a bottleneck.
We should have more ways of improving so that each player can pick the tank that match their playstyle.

[Alahra]

I don't think it works to make "serious tanking" solely focusing on DPS, because it puts all tank in a bottleneck.
We should have more ways of improving so that each player can pick the tank that match their playstyle.

Well, in that regard, yes, it doesn't work for serious tanks that don't like to DPS, but SE is kind of stuck in the middle. If they make defensive tanking too active (following WoW's example), it will reduce the number of tanks in the long run for non-raid content (say what you will about queue times for DPS here, they have always been and still are much longer in WoW), as people won't want the "responsibility" on top of the more complex playstyle.

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones. It works even if it's not to your taste.

[Phoenicia]

..DRK has Darkside, WAR has Unchained and IB.

Just wanted to point out WAR's Defiance penalty reducing effect are not Unchained and IB, it's Maim. Grit + Darkside puts DRK at 92% of base unbuffed damage, Defiance + Maim puts WAR at 90% of base damage. Unchained is more akin to FoF (33% up by ignoring the 25% penalty for 20s). IB/SC ignoring the damage is not enough to offset the penalty. All wrath spenders causing WAR to ignore defiance penalty is just the icing on the cake.

[Faytte]

Warriors are fine.
Dark Knights are fine.

Paladins are a bit weak, but id rather their damage not be changed. Upp their threat, give them a shorter cd on some of their mitigation, and increase the value of their utilities. Divine Veil for instance should not need a trigger and should effect the paladin. Clemency should be a GCD, not a cast--and simply interrupt combos similar to shield bash does.

Shield Swipe should be a cone.

Blind should effect all enemies, but only auto attacks. No natural immunes unless it has no eyes.

[rawker]

In addition, Authority is combo'd from Savage Blade instead of Riot Blade, which is inconsistent when compared to the other two tank classes.

To its defense, since PLDs are currently the lowest threat generating tank, as soon as you use savage blade, you are still not screwed up when a sudden turn of events happen.

As I stated earlier in the thread, PLD is the only class without an ability that directly counteracts the damage penalty brought on by remaining in their tank stance. DRK has Darkside, WAR has Unchained and IB. Paladin technically has FoF, but it neither ignores the damage penalty or has close to full uptime. So, before you even get into combo potencies, PLD is already at a disadvantage in damage. This problem with DPS output is only reflected in their struggle for enmity generation.

As for this one, you can easily work your way around this by toggling Shield Oath off when doing your big moves. Toggling oath off is the same as toggling cleric stance off where it doesn't interrupt your combos and doesn't consume a GCD. And then, it's just activate oath again after performing your dps move.

As what others have already said, pumping PLD threat generation is a very sound solution.

[Reynhart]

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones.

I don't deny that. But with three tanks (And probably more in the future), there's also room to differentiate serious tanks from other serious tanks.

WAR is the "DPS" tank, so the "serious tanks that like to DPS" will probably go WAR. Since PLD is the "Defensive" tank, let it be the "active defensive tank". This way, every serious tanks can be pleased (Well not every...but more of them).
As for "casual" tanks, they'll just play any tank they want without pushing them to their limit.

I really don't like the "If you think your job is too weak, play another one" but I'm totally fine with "This job's gameplay doesn't suit you, go play another one"

[Sapphidia]

Got to agree with Reynhart.

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave, and couldnt resist running around and bragging about how big a crit they just got against a gaelicat or something. Whereas I was like... meh.. just does damage, whatever.

On the contrary, when I got Sheltron I was over the moon - here was a cool active mitigation button I could press regularly when tanking to mitigate big hits, it felt turtly and awesome. I was 100 times more excited for Sheltron on my PLD than I was for Fell Cleave on my WAR.

Not going to be hanging up my sword and shield anytime soon, regardless of balance.