Tank Balance

[Ercapote]

@ercapote tldr #nochill

I'm chill brah in fact I tried to not post much here, want some pizza?

[Iagainsti]

I'm chill brah in fact I tried to not post much here, want some pizza?

I don't appreciate your ruse, sir.
To offer me pizza with no actual way of giving said pizza in a consumable form is facetious in nature.

You still have #nochill

[Ercapote]

I don't appreciate your ruse, sir.
To offer me pizza with no actual way of giving said pizza in a consumable form is facetious in nature.

You still have #nochill

ok then... NETFLIX and chill?

[carbonx]

Tempered Will: A3S says hi. Literally makes the knockback between the hand splits so easy. Your OT doesn't have to run across the arena to pick theirs up, and you don't get pushed in random directions which can be make or break for the hand of prayer/reach mechanic. Can also be used to maximize dps uptime for you in lots of fights. Tempered Will is situational, but very very powerful.

Shield Swipe saves you so much TP while you are tanking. Don't care much about the pacification if it means I don't need to beg for goad when a dps could use it more.

Shield Bash: Again, A3S says hi. Only thing I would change is make the TP cost lower.

I also agree PLD seems to be lacking in magical mitigation comparatively. We rely a lot on physical blocks, which aren't as useful in some fights (A1/4). However, I think Sheltron is a very strong CD considering everything is timed you can always block a physical tankbuster with proper planning on your part.

[Ercapote]

hi .

Tempered Will: say hi back to A3s, yes I guess it might help not moving from the middle, meanwhile I can just go back to the middle :/ dps will be pushed back so not that much of maximization.

shied swipe : don't save you "so much" TP in fact you can say it's worth using it's a dps lost and you do better by combo ROYAL AUTHORITY than by using shield swipe. pld tp will be blown at the 2.45min mark anyways.

shield bash: hi again A3s again, nothing that DRK and WAR cannot do and hit harder

GL with sheltron in AS there are none physiscal tankbuster

sorry if it sound offensive not trying to be but it's just...meh

[carbonx]

GL with sheltron in AS there are none physiscal tankbuster

Literally every cleave in A3 is physical. Most of the attacks in A2 are physical, the hardest of which is the cleave from the Jagd Dolls which you can predict and block with sheltron. Basically, you have no idea what you're talking about. Not the same "oneshot hits", but you can still die if not properly mitigated.

Shield Bash, unlike WAR and DRK and every DPS, is GCD, meaning you can literally stun whenever needed without needing to hold it and lose DPS like those classes.

Shield Swipe is still DPS while saving TP versus going completely dry and doing a grand total of 0 dps while you wait for it to tic back. Ultimately, that is a DPS gain. It can also be seen as a DPS gain if your DPS can keep going, and your Bard can go without playing Paeon for longer.

Tempered Will literally saves random wipes in A3S you otherwise are very powerless over. Unless you've seen the fight, you likely won't understand how strict the timing/distance for the mechanics are.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Nothing against you Ercapote and I understand your frustration, but you literally changed two threads with different topics into the same discussion of how Tempered Will sucks. Which is annoying. This is supposed to be an objective thread that looks at the three tanks balance and how they fit the current meta and you turned into "oh the woes of the PLD's Tempered Will". Let us keep this thread relevant to its purpose, which is the three tank balance and not make it solely into "buff PLD plx pl0x".

In the other thread you asked me to explain how PLD's abilities are good. In this thread, I explained where the three tanks are "fine" and where they aren't. Check my post here.

PLD is still superior to the other tanks in terms of defense even in the magical heavy environment of Alexander Savage. Check this long post.

PLD's problem isn't that it is weak or the class is bad. it is the meta that doesn't need such superior defense (which is PLD's niche). But blindly balancing the class to match a current raid might add underlying problems in future raids. If PLD did the same DPS as DRK, not WAR, while keeping its defensive superiority, DRK will have no place in raids. I'm not even worried about WAR's spot since it is the only tank with the all too important slashing debuff! (Another problem on its own).

DRK is a worse tank than PLD in every respect. Only reason DRK is "relevant" now is because content allowed it. If future content requires any form of physical mitigation that isn't simply "Throw all your biggest CDs every 2~3 minutes", DRK will be the tank left out since WAR and PLD both do a better job at reducing damage.

[Ercapote]

snip.

I do agree with you this time.

but...

the balance I'm asking is not dps, like I said in the other threat I don't care about dps, I'm a tanker because I want to tank, but the current situation on the game like you said our defense is not needed on the meta of the game so this leads to 3 tanks 2 work with the meta 1 doesn't. the hole TEMEPRED WILL arouse out of a comment that wasn't even aiming to that 1 specific ability, but whatever it was I read you comment and while I do agree with your point and same as everyone point here, what I'm talking about or what WE where talking about long ago on this threat is the DEAD WEIGH on pally and how that SUPREME defense was the excuse to make then weaker yet still is not supreme and wont be ever supreme, DRK is on a good spor the defense are well balanced and the dps too, I've raid with my lvl 60 drk and I can MT OT perfectly fine they have 2 CD just as good as PLD + magical CD + parry CD + cross class from war and pally making them have just as many CD as pally has + magic defense and reduction which is even higher. so I'm sorry but DRK are on a well perfectly balance place just as war.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

No, no, DRK defense SUCKS! 1 Magical CD doesn't make good defense. DRK using Shadowskin + DA+DM has 44% magical reduction, which is hardly better than Sentinel but at a massive MP cost. And only for magical damage. For physical damage DRK is down to Shadowskin and Shadow Wall. The latter being a crappy version of Sentinel. DRK's Living Dead is healer's Living Hell. Even with CC from MRD and GLA, DRK is at 2 defensive CDs less than PLD.

Read my other posts that I linked and you'll understand. I'll relink: I talked about those "situational" abilities in my post here. and about defensive capabilities in this long post.

P.S. How are you not running out your daily post limit with all those posts? Aren't you worried you're spending all of them on just telling how bad Tempered Will is? lol

[Ivellior]

this long post[/URL].

That cooldown usage is not optimal for Savage 1. You will never waste both Rampart + Sentinel on that tank buster, especially since only the later is enough and the healers will be on full healing duty due to all the aoe and damage during that phase.
PLD will go: Sentinel => Hallowed => Sentinel => Rampart + Awareness + Drac Pot of Vit + Stoneskin + whatever the healers can throw on you to keep you alive.
DRK will go: Dark Arts + Dark Mind + Shadow Wall => Living Death + Benediction => Dark Arts + Dark Mind + Shadow Wall => Dark Arts + Dark Mind + Rampart

It's more efficient (for both tanks) to use Rampart/Shadowskin after the bombs and use convalence + tank stance when the boss starts casting the missiles. If you are able to time the living death properly you can get mitigate more damage because the effective duration but we will just assume it will be used for the tank buster.
As for the benediction, it really shouldn't be a problem since 99% of the groups doing savage have SCH + WHM combination for healers. In the rare case that you don't have that combination you can just have WAR spend some of his self healing cooldowns to help the healers that have to top up DRK.
If you have a WHM using Benediction it is a no brainer since the healers can focus on WAR after Holmgag and just throw you the benediction a few seconds before the timer runs out.

Also while the 4th tank buster should no longer be an issue now with the items people have from tomes, it was something that people would face, especially in the first weeks.
However since the enrage timer was very close to the tank buster a lot of time it was simply preferable to just use the cooldowns earlier and just let the pld die so he could use a STR pot earlier rather than save the cooldown for the VIT pot on the last tank buster.

Not to mention Delirium in as well. So in that fight DRK not only mitigates more damage but is overall more efficient because he does more damage.
On Savage 2 PLD will mitigate more damage, but since PLD has not real aoe damage to speak of, it's still more efficient to use a DRK, since you can "mitigate" more damage by simply killing things faster.
On Savage 3 most damage is physical but the orange tethers are magical tank busters (The first hand is somewhat of a tank buster. You can cheese it using your I wont die button but you can always just turn it around and share damage with the group).
Whether you want to use PLD or DRK here depends on whether you can pass the dps checks, which are plenty and tough. Haven't cleared this, so I can't comment on 4.
WAR is a must have on all Savage raids because it does more damage.

The problem is the current META (because tanks need to be a beefy dps now) and the way savage encounters are designed. To make it short because DRK deals more damage and the raids have a lot of magical tank busters it's more efficient to use a DRK.
And because WAR deals the most damage it's a must have.