Tank Balance

[Reynhart]

Care to explain how it's a contradiction? SE wants tanking to be approachable, and at it's base level, it is.

I don't think it works to make "serious tanking" solely focusing on DPS, because it puts all tank in a bottleneck.
We should have more ways of improving so that each player can pick the tank that match their playstyle.

[Alahra]

I don't think it works to make "serious tanking" solely focusing on DPS, because it puts all tank in a bottleneck.
We should have more ways of improving so that each player can pick the tank that match their playstyle.

Well, in that regard, yes, it doesn't work for serious tanks that don't like to DPS, but SE is kind of stuck in the middle. If they make defensive tanking too active (following WoW's example), it will reduce the number of tanks in the long run for non-raid content (say what you will about queue times for DPS here, they have always been and still are much longer in WoW), as people won't want the "responsibility" on top of the more complex playstyle.

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones. It works even if it's not to your taste.

[Reynhart]

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones.

I don't deny that. But with three tanks (And probably more in the future), there's also room to differentiate serious tanks from other serious tanks.

WAR is the "DPS" tank, so the "serious tanks that like to DPS" will probably go WAR. Since PLD is the "Defensive" tank, let it be the "active defensive tank". This way, every serious tanks can be pleased (Well not every...but more of them).
As for "casual" tanks, they'll just play any tank they want without pushing them to their limit.

I really don't like the "If you think your job is too weak, play another one" but I'm totally fine with "This job's gameplay doesn't suit you, go play another one"

[Sapphidia]

Got to agree with Reynhart.

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave, and couldnt resist running around and bragging about how big a crit they just got against a gaelicat or something. Whereas I was like... meh.. just does damage, whatever.

On the contrary, when I got Sheltron I was over the moon - here was a cool active mitigation button I could press regularly when tanking to mitigate big hits, it felt turtly and awesome. I was 100 times more excited for Sheltron on my PLD than I was for Fell Cleave on my WAR.

Not going to be hanging up my sword and shield anytime soon, regardless of balance.

[RecklessLion]

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave, and couldnt resist running around and bragging about how big a crit they just got against a gaelicat or something. Whereas I was like... meh.. just does damage, whatever.

Funny!! I was one of those warriors running around for looking things to cleave once I got it. I've always love playing brute like characters so that made my day!!

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Funny!! I was one of those warriors running around for looking things to cleave once I got it.

When I first learned Fell Cleave, I was on skype with a group of buddies and my first words were "they're gona nerf the hell out of this skill" lol. Ahhh sweet sweet memories.

#Launch

[Phoenicia]

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills.

Thing was, when PLDs got Sheltron, WAR's reaction was: "Meh, we have Inner Beast". All that the PLD got was things WAR already "had" and the PLD was "hurting for".

But yeah, active mitigation can go very far. For example: Let PLD have more abilities that increase block temporarily or otherwise reduce damage. WAR's form of active mitigation would be reducing damage taken through offense. Either by generating barriers or healing post-fact.

[Alahra]

WAR is the "DPS" tank, so the "serious tanks that like to DPS" will probably go WAR. Since PLD is the "Defensive" tank, let it be the "active defensive tank". This way, every serious tanks can be pleased (Well not every...but more of them).
As for "casual" tanks, they'll just play any tank they want without pushing them to their limit.

That's certainly true to a degree (though things like class flavor and the like factor into people's choices as well). I don't foresee them making PLD significantly more complex, though, either through DPS or more active mitigation as it's also the "gateway" tank. With the lowest skill barrier of the three, it's the easiest for someone new to tanking to pick up and use, and even perhaps to enjoy all the way to 60. Granted, they've shown willingness to change simple gameplay styles (BLM from ARR to HW changed significantly, for instance), so it's something that could happen in the future.

Got to agree with Reynhart.

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave... -snip- On the contrary, when I got Sheltron I was over the moon...

It's funny, actually. I prefer defensive tanking (well, I prefer avoidance tanking, but that's not a solid design avenue in games like these), and I've always preferred PLD to WAR, but I just can't get excited for PLD anymore. I think leveling DRK first killed it for me, as it's a bit more active, and that's made PLD feel really boring now. It's unfortunate because in terms of flavor, PLD is my preferred tank, but gameplay wise, I'm having a hard time enjoying it now. Fell Cleave excites me enough that I'm leveling WAR occasionally when I get bored, but it took me forever to push PLD from 52-54, as Shelltron left me really unexcited. I'm not looking forward to anything on it ability wise, sadly.

[Reynhart]

That's certainly true to a degree (though things like class flavor and the like factor into people's choices as well). I don't foresee them making PLD significantly more complex, though, either through DPS or more active mitigation as it's also the "gateway" tank.

I think that they can safely expand on PLD's gameplay...after level 50.
Leveling from 1 to 50 and doing all mandatory ARR content is plenty enough to learn how to play tank at a smooth pace.

[Alahra]

I think that they can safely expand on PLD's gameplay...after level 50.
Leveling from 1 to 50 and doing all mandatory ARR content is plenty enough to learn how to play tank at a smooth pace.

I think we might see it become more complex in 4.0, yes. At 60, PLD is nearly (though not quite) as complex as WAR was at 50, at least in terms of basic rotational stuff. It's still simpler than 50 WAR when you start getting into proper IB timing, Defiance-dropping, and so on, so there's room to add some fiddly bits 60+. I don't see them making huge changes to the 50-60 kit, though.